Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The larger one i purchesed about 3 weeks ago she was rasied with no UVB and given D3 supplaments she was the size of the smaller one when i got her. i went back to the same place today and picked up the small one (i got her on a trade for doing a baot load of fecal exams for the breeder) and she is a clutchmate to the big they are same age and basicly kept the same waythe only Differance being UVB light as one can see the one that has not ever had exposureuvb light is MUCH smaller and more fine boned and dianty than the fat pig who only 3 weeks ago was the same size as the small one.

Mat price

Big difference. UVB and good caring will bring them a long way. Nice lookin dragons hopefully with a little proper caring you'll get her/him up to par. Good luck.
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Mystical Dragons

Are you using Fluorescnet UVB or Mercury Vapor UVB? As you can see from my previous post, I am having very big problems. I will take any advise I can get. Thanks!

scot i just put a MVB over that tank on monday of last week so the big one has had MVB for only 7 days IT HAS MADE A WORLD OF DIFFERANCE, the small one i jus got today she had strong spot light and no uvb they are clutch mates and should be closer in size. the big one was under a reptisun 5.0 until than.
now they are under both a repti sun5.0 and MVB i just kept the reptisun on there for some visable light all over the tank. not gonna hurt nothing

Mat

How many Watts? How far away?

100wat zoomed over a 20 gal long tank keeps the basking spot at about 105

you WILL have to add supplamental heating for larger tanks

These lights do not produce a lot of heat. I live in Florida and I still have to use another light for heat source.

Also there are different distance requirements in placing these bulbs. As I recall, 18" away from the closest spot the BD can be to the MVB for a 100 watt, and 24" for the 160 watt. I could be quoting on the conservative side.

well, since several of you have been saying what a difference mvb makes in growth, i just ordered one for my girl that refuses to grow (all her lights and food and everythng are correct, and her poop appears normal, so no obvious reason for the delay). lets see if it helps her...even if it doesnt, at least i wont have quite as much crap sitting on top of her cage

btw, i found 160 watt at petguys.com for at least 5 dollars cheaper than i see anywhere else
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

i can try and dig up a 3week old pic for you to se i am just astounded how much the big one in the pic above has grown since i got her she was truly the size of the small one in the pic. and alot of her size seems to have come in the last 7 days since she has been under the MVB i have my MVB over a 20 gal long tank wth the basking spot about 3-4 inches off the floor and it reads 104.5 on the probe so for this size tank the 100 watt flood seems to work pretty good. i think when i get my 55 gal i am going ot put a 160 watt flood over the basking spot and raise the basking spot a spec and see if i can get away with just a MVB on top.if not it is not to uch of a big deal to have 2 clamp lamps on top over tha basking spot.

Mat

right now ive got a regular clear bulb (not a reptile-specific bulb), 150 watts, creating a 105ish basking spot for each of my two beardies (ive been fiddling with it a bit because it does get to 110 if too low, so im still trying to get the perfect position). if i can get away with just one bulb instead of a basking bulb plus a flourescent strip over each cage, that would be great. if i cant, ill live. the big thing is jsut that Dulce hasnt grown much, hasnt even had a full shed in the two months ive had her. like i said her temps are good, she's got uvb and i dust her crix, she eats plenty. ill have to get a fecal done, but shes not really showing any other signs of illness (no runny stools, plenty of appetite, etc). so hopefully, the new bulb will do the trick for her. i dont understand why they appear to have this effect, but i wont argue with it
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

and have it under a UVB source.

There is a lot of arguments on this subject, many feel that the dragons will catch up in time and state they may be growing to fast with the UBV and slower growth rate may be better. My thoughts are the UVB we provide is only 25% or less they get in their native habitat so I don't feel that is a factor.

It all still comes down to personal choice, I do beleive that adults do not need the UVB amounts that growing babies do. And we will continue to use the mercury vapor lights on all babies.

Several of the failure to thrive babies we have taken in were healthy looking, just very small, all responded with huge growth spurts under the mercury vapor lights.

This one went from 34 grams to 157 in 5 weeks, with 2 inches in growth. This is a year old dragon, extremely healthy, just she was very small, she is on the road to cathcing up with normal dragons her age and we are hopeful that she will reach that goal.
PS: Grimdog has the one that came with her and the same age and situation, I think that one has continued to grow and gain also.

On arrival 7/1/03

5 weeks later 8/8/03

Because it is written in so many places and so many people say it, it must be true "You must use UV"... well show me the proof. I know just as many breeders and vets not using UV light of any kind and their dragons are all fine. I have recently spoken with several people studying this belief to see if it is true or not. So far findings are inconclusive.

Think about this. Florescent UV lights need to be within 12" of the animal to be effective. Most enclosures don't meet those criteria. Why do they have indoor and outdoor calcium supplements? Indoor has d3 so the dragon doesn't have to make it. You don’t use a supplement with d3 if the animal is kept outdoors. If the light truly put out the UV needed for the animal, how much radiation would go along with it? If you have any scientific data (not anecdotal evidence), I would love to see it. Saying that one animal is bigger and healthier than the other because of UV exposure is like saying the sun comes up in the morning because the rooster crows.

Last but not least I have been using UV lights for going on nearly 10 years. My babies are raised with an additional 1-2 hours of natural Florida sunshine every day. Here is a pic of two babies from the same parents, from the same clutch, from the same incubator, from the same nursery facility, getting the same food, the same light, the same everything. Why are they different?

Sorry for the long rant

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

n/p
D K REPTILE

well in those two the case can be made they are just differant sizes in my case i bought one that was same size as the other three weeks. since being under UVB she has tripled in size while the other stayed virtualy the same size. i assume the two dragons you have pictured have shown similar groth patterns only one just being smaller these two have NOT shown the same groth pattern one triples in size while the other remains the same the only limiting factor being UVB light. i will wager that this small dragon will be the same size or near the larger of the two in a bout three weeks.

as far as i know there is NO scientific proff done either way. i would also be skeptical of breeders saying i never use UVB just because there is no "scientific proof" doesn;t mean that results are null and void... there is no scientific proff that babies digest food best at temperatures between 105-110 but thats what we use. cause it works. show me scientific proof that UVB light is of no value.

Mat Price

since you seem to be skeptical of the need for uvb why don;t you raise your hatchlings indoor with no uvb light and only d3 suplamentation. you seem to be avidly using uvb for the last 10 years as you say and putting the animals outside for sunshine so you must belive that uvb light is of use or why go through all the trouble.

also i think these comparisons are far from acentadotal. given the circumstances. but to each his own.

i will continue to use UVB as i see tremendous differances in my animals color and feeding to those animals raised without UVB ancedotal as it may be.

I am very skeptical of the need for artificial UV light. When my new setup is complete I will probably not have any artificial UV for my BDs. I have been using UV for 10 years and now finding no proof that it does anything, and looking at the economics of setting up 50 enclosures with UV, well looks like they will have to get the real thing instead. I believed without questioning. its like the old story of the thanksgiving turkey with one leg cut off... that’s just the way its done is not a good enough answer for me anymore.

The amount of light does seem to be important and does seem to make a difference; I just don’t see UV doing anything. If it works for you, great, more power to you. I would not ever say you are wrong or that it is a waste. I just want someone to show me that it is truly needed and useful.

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Here’s a story for you...
I got 2 Germans from a well known breeder. They were the same size on arrival at about 6 weeks old. At 10 weeks old one seemed to be outgrowing the other. Both were kept in the same cage. At 3 months I became concerned and called the breeder. "You sold me a runt" I told him. He said "give it time". Well long story short, the large one was at 325 grams and the small one at 175 when they went into brumation. Within a month of waking up, the small one was the same size and beginning to outgrow the larger one.

As the breeder told me, those little ones can surprise you; they all grow at their own rate!

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Sorry could not resist

No getting around the fact that this species has thrived incredibly well for millions of years in an area that has the highest UVB output of almost anywhere in the world and there are not indicators that has harmed them.

When you use only supplements you are switching off their natural ability to synthesize pre D3 which is processed into D3 in their bodies naturally.

Can you show any scientific evidence that that is not also switching another vital process in them. MANY breeders report smaller size dragons that use on D3 and MANY are rethinking this line.

Bearded dragons in nature are 18-24 inches, not 12-15 like we are starting to see here...... sorry, that is my argument and I know several sizable breeders that beleive this aslo.

We have worked with too many rehab dragons that are perfect, no MBD, no health problem.. so we know their supplementing and diet was good..... but they are mini size dragons. Once we take them in and put them under good UVB, they grow remarkable well, not only in weight and better eating, but in length and fast!

Granted good UVB is not all we do, we also use a certain cricket food for gutloading and expose them to some natural sun on weekends... this may also be a factor for them. But we follow the same husbandry rules that the prior owners did, which I think was good, except for the MVB

Many of the same breeders that say you do not NEED UVB lights, will also follow that with they do believe a dragon will thrive better with them.

Living and thriving are different.

Hey Mat, One issue I have with your proof is that besides UVB there are tons of other variables that have changed. Your temps are probably different. What and how you feed could be different. Whan and how often you feed could be different. Housing conidtions could be different (half a clutch vs. singly). Light cycles could be different. Supplements could be different. Supplement schedule could be different. When each went through growth spurts. Maybe the little guy had just finished a growth spurt. Maybe the big one started a growth spurt when you got him. UVB is different. You see my point? There are upwards of dozens of things that are different between how the breeder kept dragons and how you are keeping your dragons. One of the differences is UVB, but it isn't the only difference. For this reason UVB can not be singled out as the cause of different growth. Just the scientific way.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

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tossing out full spectrum too cause it appeared on Kingsnake, bad enough dealing with the problems of no UVB without removing the other one too now.

I have been told by my reptile vet that scientific research has been done on the florescent tubes and it was found that none of the bulbs on the market puts out any measurable UVB after about 3 months of use.The same people doing the research were still testing the mercury vapor bulbs.It was however stated that there was no proof that they were better yet.I will ask him if he has gotten an update on the research recently.I have also had the same results having babies from the same litter,in the same cage and there seems to always be one or two that simply grows faster than the others.Usually they seem to be the ones that eat the most.UVB bulbs are ok but I don't believe they can be better than getting the dragons natural sunlight a couple times a week.