Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey All, i have an Egyptian uro that i was told was CB but i am kind of doubting it, he hasnt acclimated well, hes lethargic, he eats but very little, i have been giving him some worm guard and jump start, also trying to get him to consume cacti fuits due to there natural deworming capabilities, any ideas how to get this guy going agin with out a costly vet bill? i can administer panacur also

thanks for any input
APL
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

What size enclosure is he in? What types of lighting/heat/UV lights are you using. What are the temps in the enclosure, both hot, cool, and basking temps and what are you using to measure them with. What are you feeding? What substrate do you have him on?

All of these need to be answered before anyone here will be able to help you figure out why your Uro is not eating well and is lethargic. All of the things I listed above tie together, so if one aspect is not right, it will affect everything else.

Andi

Ok, well I manaage the reptile department at an independant store, and i am not keeping him any differently than i have every other uro we have got in.

right now i have him moved out back into a seperate tank

tank size is a ten gallon
heating with a 100w ceramic heat emitter
temp is 92 on the warm side
uv is provided via a super coil lamp
diet cosists of collards dandelions green leaf, finely chopped carrots, prickly pear fruit and some other green mixed in
suppliments are Miner-All and Vit-all

and i have been saoking it to help keep it hydrated

hope that helps, But like i said uros arent a new thing to me we have kept many and help people keep many very happy, this one i am pretty sure is a wild caught simply by how it is acting, nothing like any CB i have ever seen

Thanks
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

It's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to get the correct temperature gradient needed for a Uro in a 10-gallon tank. The hot side ambient air temp needs to be 95-100 degrees, the cool side ambient air in the low 80's, and the basking surface temperature about 125. There is just physically no way to get the proper temperatures in that size of tank. If it's too hot, it will dehydrate. If it's too cool or doesn't have the proper basking temperature, it literally won't be able to digest it's food properly. Both of those conditions will lead to health problems.

Not to mention that putting a Uro in a tank that small would be equivalent to getting a dog or cat and keeping it in a closet or small bathroom for the rest of it's life.

Try correcting the tank size, work on getting the proper temperature gradient mentioned above, and see if it responds to a better environment.

Thanks for you input it will be noted, if i could get a pic sof the tank on here you would have a better understanding

Adam
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Hi Doublemom-

Just thought I'd chime in but if this Uro is a "baby" then yes it CAN be kept successfully in a 10g enclosure if temps and humidity are correct, as you noted. I think you might have been thinking if a full adult Uro instead. A larger tank will hsve to be provided as it matures.

"Just thought I'd chime in but if this Uro is a "baby" then yes it CAN be kept successfully in a 10g enclosure if temps and humidity are correct,as you noted'

What is your definition of success? Is it that the uro is simply alive? Is success measured by a lethargic animal or a growth rate that is a fraction of what it should be because of inadequate temperatures?

Using the terms- temperature, 10-gallon, and correct in the same sentence results in a oxymoron trifecta.

In my book, the word success cannot be used in the same sentence with the words uromastyx and ten-gallon.

Hi again.

My apologies for my post, lacking in specifics. I was on lunch break and typed quickly. Regardless, that really isn't a qualified rebutle, just an explanation.

When I said "success," I was referring to a healthy, captive bred animal that is eating and such. My response was not in regards to the animal in question in this thread.

And I disagree wholly. A small individual, such as a "baby" beardie (approx. 3 inches) can be kept in a 10g until the need for a larger enclosure is required. Obviously a Uro doesn't have the same temp. requirements as a Bearded Dragon but with the proper wattage, digital thermometer, and humidity; if this uro is no more than three inches maxium, then yes it can be kept in a 10 gal for the time being.

I'm surprise so many here are hyped on the size of the tank, and haven't mentioned the animal's weight or brought up the possibility it might have internal paracites. In which case, flagyl and pacacur might be suggested? Yes?

... that sometimes small enclosures are handy when observing a possibly unhealthy animal, which seems to be the case, in temporary conditions.

Good day to you all.

"I'm surprise so many here are hyped on the size of the tank, and haven't mentioned the animal's weight or brought up the possibility it might have internal paracites. In which case, flagyl and pacacur might be suggested? Yes?'

This was ALL brought up but the poster did not want the best solution/suggestion which was proper medical diagnosis and care, he wanted the cheaper alternative. Many of us are not of the mindset that it is ok to throw medication at an animal without proper diagnosis. The post discussing parasites and a health check was deleted because it was not politically correct enough for this forum.

"that sometimes small enclosures are handy when observing a possibly unhealthy animal, which seems to be the case, in temporary conditions'

I find this statement a little ironic considering many unhealthy animals are unhealthy due to inadequate enclosures and temperatures. I have no problem observing animals for health issues in a 4 or 6' enclosure.

The only thing that should be kept in a 10-gallon tank is a gold fish.

In my opinion, NO responsible hobbyist would use a 10-gallon aquarium for this species. A ten-gallon aquarium fits one need- that of the irresponsible keeper so they can selfishly save a little cash and space by usinsg a gold fish tank.

Back to the tank situation... Since Eqyptian Uros are the largest of their species, by all means correct me if I'm wrong because I might be, yes it would be inhumane to keep any uro in a 10g for the rest of it's life, but in a temorary situation as this, I agree with the original poster, assuming that the uro is very small. As long as there primary needs are met, there is always room for upgrading enclosures.

Please note that (longish) paragraph because especially the terms, "temorary" "needs met" and "small (3in max" seem to be negated.

One further thing. I do not believe to say that if a hobbyist wishes to keep a small uro in a 10 or even 15 gal. is not responsible or right in assuming so. No person can pass the judgement unless they've personally seen the husbantry.

Now, you're entightled to your opinion, and as I am but I'm putting the tank issue aside (again), and moving on to the real issue - the sick uro.

This was ALL brought up but the poster did not want the best solution/suggestion which was proper medical diagnosis and care, he wanted the cheaper alternative. Many of us are not of the mindset that it is ok to throw medication at an animal without proper diagnosis. The post discussing parasites and a health check was deleted because it was not politically correct enough for this forum.

Well, I think all the original poster brought up was Panacur, but I do remember something about a vet bill, and perhaps that was the wrong thing to say - "expensive vet bill." But regardless, he came to a forum to learn like the rest of us?? Isn't that what presumeably (sp) a forum is for?

True, and I agree. A fecal sample would be the correct course of action to determine if the animal actually has worms, etc.

I find this statement a little ironic considering many unhealthy animals are unhealthy due to inadequate enclosures and temperatures. I have no problem observing animals for health issues in a 4 or 6' enclosure.

I actually grinned at this because I too saw the irony. But consider this: Aquarists, such as myself, have quarentine tanks on seperate systems from the main one, and believe it or not, these quarentine tanks for fish are typically no more than 20 gallons - 29 tops when the main system is say a 75 gallon. An aquarists quarentine tank is really no different than that of a herp.

We all have our preferences but I find it much easier to study and watch over a sick animal in a smaller environment versus a 4 foot enclosure where stress of the space of a smaller creature can possibly increase problems. I'm sure you know that stress will lower the immune system. My opinion of larger enclosures with small animals, and the stress issue, can be rooted to baby ball pythons who are notorously shy animals. However, I suppose filling up the space with plenty of hiding places works too.

To each their own.

I'm enjoying our descussions.

” yes it would be inhumane to keep any uro in a 10g for the rest of it's life, but in a temorary situation as this, I agree with the original poster, assuming that the uro is very small. As long as there primary needs are met, there is always room for upgrading enclosures.”

My point is not based on the size of the animal but the size in which a ‘proper’ gradient can be achieved. Again, I am referring to temperature range and space.
It is my opinion that this cannot be accomplished correctly in a 10-gallon for a species which requires a higher basking spot and gradient than most other reptiles kept in captivity.

” I do not believe to say that if a hobbyist wishes to keep a small uro in a 10 or even 15 gal. is not responsible or right in assuming so. No person can pass the judgement unless they've personally seen the husbantry.

I do not need to physically see the husbandry when I have had years of experience in setting up dozens of enclosures for dozens of uromastyx. Maybe my standards are higher than everyone else when it comes to the term proper but I will adamantly defend my opinion that a 10-gallon is irresponsible when it comes to any size uromastyx.

” But regardless, he came to a forum to learn like the rest of us?? Isn't that what presumeably (sp) a forum is for?

Yes, that is what a forum is for but in my experience, those that post for help and ignore the suggestions they receive to start citing that they work at a pet store and are not new to the species are usually those that do very little learning on the forums.

” But consider this: Aquarists, such as myself, have quarentine tanks on seperate systems from the main one, and believe it or not, these quarentine tanks for fish are typically no more than 20 gallons - 29 tops when the main system is say a 75 gallon. An aquarists quarentine tank is really no different than that of a herp.”

I will agree when I need to achieve the same type of basking spot and high gradient with my fish as I do with my reptiles.

”We all have our preferences but I find it much easier to study and watch over a sick animal in a smaller environment versus a 4 foot enclosure where stress of the space of a smaller creature can possibly increase problems.”

If I were a betting person and had to place a bet on which would stress a sick or convalescing uromastyx more- an enclosure that is too small or an enclosure that is too large (not such a thing in my book), I would bet on the small enclosure.

I can understand the idea of a quarantine enclosure being smaller but it is my belief that it should be large enough to allow for a proper gradient and basking spot and this does not include 10-gallon fish tanks.

”My opinion of larger enclosures with small animals, and the stress issue, can be rooted to baby ball pythons who are notorously shy animals. However, I suppose filling up the space with plenty of hiding places works too.”

It is my direct experience that young and/or small uromastyx are not stressed in large enclosures. Rather than write it all out again, here is a quote from my website regarding uromastyx hatchlings and large enclosures. The quote addresses a couple of the claims that have been made about larger enclosures being stressful or causing problems with feeding for hatchlings.

"I have read reports of larger enclosures being ‘dangerous’ for hatchlings due to younger animals being overwhelmed and stressed by the large space or that the hatchlings may not be able to find food. I personally find this preposterous considering that in nature these animals are not confined to small enclosures with set parameters once they exit their burrow. Granted, most hatchlings stay in close proximity to the burrow immediately after hatching but this is primarily due to predation. Close proximity in nature is a couple of meters in all directions so I do not think we need to concern ourselves with offering too much ‘space’ in captivity. My uromastyx hatchlings go directly into 4 or 6-foot enclosures from the incubator. My geyri (5-7 grams) have no problem utilizing the entire 4-foot enclosure the day after hatching and I have not had one hatchling that was not able to find food because of being placed in a 4 or 6-foot enclosure."

Debb -

I think I'm seeing it your way now. I'm very sorry it took five replies and headaches on the side. In retrospect, not that I'm going to hunt for a sick uro or any animal, a larger enclosure for a young animal is worth trying in the future. Gotta love temp guns and digi thermos.

I'm on my lunch break and will read your quote from your site later.

All gold fish grow too large to be housed in a 10 gallon also.

'Tis true. Goldfish and 10g tanks = too many water changes.

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. The size of the uro is irrelevant. It's a matter of getting a proper temperature gradient, which is impossible in a 10 gallon tank.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Mali Uros (Spike, Turtle, and Tank)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
0.1 Collared Lizard (Rorschach)
2. Green Anoles (Bowser and Sprocket)
1.1 Chubby Housecats (Roscolux and Jenny)

It is quite possible to get that gradient. It is called a RAISED BASKING SPOT.

My roomate is keeping a baby in 10g, and using raised basking spots in the form of bricks stacked on top of each other, the top, where he basks, gets to about 120-130, the bottom of this basking spot, which acts as a hide as well, gets down to 85.

The cool side can reach 70 degrees, and this is all quite possible using a low watt bulb and a raised basking spot.

There is a difference bewteen having 'a' gradient and have a proper gradient. A proper gradient not only achieves specific temperatures, it allows for adequate space within the various zones of temperature.

In my opinion, NO responsible hobbyist would use a 10-gallon aquarium for this species. A ten-gallon aquarium fits one need- that of the irresponsible keeper so they can selfishly save a little cash and space by using a gold fish tank.

A proper gradient isn't achieved in 2" increments, I don't care what size the animal. It HAS to be spread out over a larger area & a 10 gallon fish tank just won't provide it whether the sites are stacked or not. 80 degrees to 120 within a 20" space is just poor husbandry.

So you are saying that a baby, only a few inches, cannot be kept in a 10g tank, for any period of time whatsoever, despite multiple (many) hide spots, proper gradients, etc?

That is ridiculous. Obviously, as the animal grows a larger cage is required. It is common practice with most herp species to start small and move them into larger cages as they grow.

The added surface area of the raised basking platforms, Retes style, almost doubles the surface area of the tank.

Would I recomend this to novie keepers? Of course not.

But practical application of general husbandry ideas allows for more than cookie cutter setups.

My tempgun says I have proper gradients, and so does a growing and healthy baby, who is not even mine.

The key statement is "for any period of time whatsoever?" Of course not. But, the time should be limited. Hours, days, weeks, who's to say? You obviously aren't ignorant of husbandry or concern for your Uro. I just respectfully disagree that such a tight gradient is a sufficient set-up for ANY age Uro for more than a very temporary nature. Again, you're "offering" temperature decreases/increases within the confines of INCHES when they need FEET. Think about it. The little guy can't roam in his comfort zone but a few inches in any direction. How natural is that?

I agree it is not ideal, but this is not my Uro. However, I think that proper gradients are possible, and the Uro will make due with what is offered. If I had a Uro I would start it in possibly a 20L.

I think my point is that most people offer no flexibilty in their husbandry. Temporary, I would say, would be weeks. It may not like the fact that it cannot move a around that much, but the fact is, in the wild, the less movement, the more energy saved. An animal WISHES it could find a huge range of temperatures in a small area.

This reduces the risk of predation, and saves precious energy.

Yes, a 10 is too small. Ideal? of course not. Doable and practical in a pinch? For a baby, yes.

” I agree it is not ideal, but this is not my Uro.”

Because the uromastyx is not yours, it makes this inadequate enclosure ok to argue for?

” the Uro will make due with what is offered

Of course it will- what choice does it have? Smaller enclosures with improper temperatures can take days, months, or even years to kill a uromastyx. It all depends on the severity of the incorrect temperature and the health and resilience of the animal that is placed in it.

” It may not like the fact that it cannot move a around that much, but the fact is, in the wild, the less movement, the more energy saved.”

What does being confined to a small space with restricted movement and conservation of energy have to do with justifying a 10-gallon? Unless of course you are pointing out that many keepers who use 10-gallons also lack in other husbandry and that improper temperature and diet typically result in poor digestion so limiting space to conserve energy would be of benefit? I think you may have a point as many uromastyx confined to small enclosures tend to spend much more time in a hide and eventually demonstrate very little desire to move about as a typical uromastyx would.

As you appear to have little or no experience with uromastyx and have never kept uromastyx, let me inform you that I have seen first hand the result of smaller enclosures and improper temperatures and what they do to these animals. Unfortunately, most of the people keeping these uromastyx do not have the experience to recognize healthy behavior patterns vs basic survival patterns. Most people feel that as long as the animal is eating and breathing, it is just fine and doing well. Your experience in this debate comes from the fact that you took a couple temperature readings in your roommate’s 10 gallon and then felt qualified to state that this small enclosure is fine for a species you have never kept. My experience comes from years of working with these animals and recognizing a healthy uromastyx from those that are not.

Attempting to achieve proper temperatures in this small of an enclosure usually results in the basking spot and/or gradient being too hot or too cold. If the environment is too hot, it can result in a quick death or it can result in enough stress and burden on system of the animal that a premature death results. A living environment that is too cold usually results in a long miserable route to death which many keepers are completely oblivious of.

I want to address the readings you give in your first post where you claim that proper temperatures and space can be achieved for this species. Throwing space aside, in my world, the temperatures you cited in your first post equal an adequate basking spot and a cool zone for the rest of the enclosure. My ‘cool zone’ runs from 80-85 during the day. Lets say that a uromastyx has a potz of 100, your roommate’s uromastyx has the option of sitting on a 120F+ basking spot or spending time in a rather cool zone. Talk about energy expenditure.

” An animal WISHES it could find a huge range of temperatures in a small area.”

Hmmm…might this have something to do with the fact that we are speaking of an ectotherm whose health and well-being is determined by its ability to regulate its body temperature via the environment they are surrounded by? Of course a uromastyx would wish to find a proper range of space and temperature, it is necessary for its well being and survival.

”Yes, a 10 is too small. Temporary, I would say, would be weeks”

Look at your own statements. If a ten-gallon is too small (your words) and should only be used for a brief period of time, doesn’t this suggest that this is an improper environment all together? Just because these creatures are resilient and can survive for periods of time in adverse conditions, does not mean that we should force this upon them for any period of time for our own selfish reasons. If someone cannot afford a proper size enclosure, the space for that enclosure, or other necessary equipment to keep the animal healthy, they have no business having that reptile in their possession. If it is agreed upon that something is inadequate enough to be used for ‘weeks’, it is inadequate period.

I agree with you on all points. However, from my experience, lizards wind up in small tanks. I have done the petstore thing, I know how most people think and act.

I like big tanks.
I keep my neonate hognose in a 20L. My bluetongue skink has 8 square feet of room.

However, most people keep their herps in too small enclusures. It is a fact. Should they? Probably not. Will that change? Most likely not.

So, what is better, a 10g with proper gradients, or a 10g with a half log hiding spot?

Neither is "better". Both options are improper. But, you're right, people are going to do what they please with their animals, damn the torpedoes & all the good information available to them.

BTW, for what it's worth, neonate snakes in general do better in SMALL enclosures. Welcome to the world of herps.

MOST snakes. Hognose are active foragers, unlike sit and wait pythons. My 6 inch hog has more room than my 2 foot borneo short tailed python.

Welcome to the world of herps

Far be it for me to debate husbandry with a former pet store employee...

Oh come on lol. I would say a large number of serious herp enthusiasts have put in there time in pet stores.

Oh, I know & agree. Just being tongue 'n cheek, that's all.