Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi, my name is Shahe and im addicted to pituophis.

really though, my wife and i went looking for cages for my b-day and we ended up comming home with a 5 foot albino gopher snake. plus she lost a bet for a snake-she said they spoke spanish in brazil i said they spoke portuguese...i won a snake under $100.

i need some help IDing him.

he was listed as a san diego gopher but i think he is a sonoran. only problem is my digital camera charger is MIA and my camera is DED. but hes about 5 foot (guess) bright yellow with blood red blotches his tail stripes are pure white.

he is very calm he didnt even jump when we probed him just kinda froze. he was almost all the way at the bottom of a shelf in the back corner of the store i almost missed him.

when i find my charger or go buy a new one i will post the pics of him and my other two pits a unsexed white sided albino bull and a regular sonoran gopher female.

if anyone even reads this whole thing sorry i know its long, but one question i did have is food amount i was thinking two large mice a week or should i go with two med rats a week? his widest part of his body is about 6 inches around.

i was told he was raised on live food-hopefully i can get him to switch to f/t.

Thanks for reading and any replies
Shahe

Si,
it sounds like a San Diego but hard to say without a pic.
I would say that 2 large mice a week is plenty since its already a adult.Or switch once in a while to one med rat.Mice have more calcium so a steady diet of pup rats or young rats is probably not good unless you toss in a few mice here and there.

Shannon

Mice have more calcium? I thought rats did! Great. Now I have to rethink my entire life.

If the snake is used to mice it may ignore rats, especially dead ones. You'll probably have to scent the rat with a mouse.

if the rats are older they will have higher calcium levels but young rats (especially pups) don't have devoloped bones so there isn't much calcium in them. This is what I have been told by old timers that actually worked in labs etc....

L8r

Shannon,

That is a big reason why I prefer feeding mice over rats, of course....until they get to a size where they NEED to eat small rats!

-----
Genesis 1:1

you read on the internet! (Sorry Billy, Sorry Shanon), It is simply not true that mice have more calcium than pup rats. Rat pups (fuzzies), are loaded with calcium both skeletal and in the other tissues not to mention a belly full of easily digestable milk calcium.

Many reptiles subsist on a diet consisting almost entirely on nestling organisms. I have two large adult, reproductive female pituophis that never ever ever ever eat anything but rat pups and have done so for 9+ years. They lay perfect eggs with normal sized cluthes. It was not my choice however they will not eat anything bigger than rat pups. (It takes 7-10 per feeding to make a meal).

Black pines seem to have a prey aquisition behavior that would suggest multiple animal (nest of babies) feeding stagity.

This "no calcium in a pink or fuzzy" idea is a snake keeper's legend or myth. There is no truth to it. I have had this discussion every time Billy calls me up and complains to me that his snakes aren't long enough for their age.

Rat pups are more nutritious than an equal wt mouse. The snake gets less filler in the form of hair, etc. and also gets the advantage of a substance called brown fat. This is the incredibly high energy substance that allows the rat to make the jump into being a weaning.

If you have access to rats, feed rats!

MHO, ginter

I agree, at all life stages in a Pits life I believe the preferred food should be rats. There are exceptions to every rule, but under normal circumstances rats fulfill the nutritional requirements that Pits need to grow and prosper.

Offering mice IMO can be a mistake. Pits often times become fixated on prey items and the last thing any of us need is a 6' pine snake that refuses to eat rats!

Phil
pituophis.org

" you read on the internet! (Sorry Billy, Sorry Shanon), It is simply not true that mice have more calcium than pup rats. Rat pups (fuzzies), are loaded with calcium both skeletal and in the other tissues not to mention a belly full of easily digestable milk calcium. "

You may have some knowledge then that I don't have. I am just going by what I know, and I am open to being wrong on this, Ginty.

"This "no calcium in a pink or fuzzy" idea is a snake keeper's legend or myth. There is no truth to it. I have had this discussion every time Billy calls me up and complains to me that his snakes aren't long enough for their age. "

I have had numerous discussions with many big breeders, and they have always thought that mice have more calcium. They do say, in favor of rats, that rats have more protein. As far as " complaining ", if you remember, I was actually concerned about a select few, as the majority of my collection is doing great.

" If you have access to rats, feed rats! "

I did all rats at one time and didn't experience zilch in growth. My best results have been mice OR rats that were properly proportioned.

Later!!
-----
Genesis 1:1

The argument has been that a mouse that is comparable in size to a rat is a more mature animal with higher bone density and thus contains more calcium. This would make sense but at the end of the day, even if the calcium content is slightly higher for an adult mouse as compared to a rat pup, the rat pup is still a great food source with plenty of nutritional value. And as John pointed out rat pups have additional value as food items that a mouse of comparable size would not.

I cannot stress enough the prey fixation problem that sometimes develops with some individual Pits. This may never become an issue with many specimens but there are clearly those in which it does. My philosophy is never allow a Pit to see a mouse and there will never be any problems of this type.

I have seen this before and It is a pain. One example was a large bullsnake I adopted years ago. The former owner fed this animal on mice only and it had no interest in feeding on rats when I acquired it. While this snake should have been feeding on adult rats it completely ignored these all together and accepted only mice. Feeding this snake 18 mice at a time was more than I was willing to under take and I eventually found this snake a new home! I have also had sub-adult Pits that were brought up on appropriate sized rats in which I was forced to temporarilly feed mice to when my rat source had his colony crash. Most of these snakes went right back to rats once I was able to secure them from another source. Unfortunatly a few snakes decided they preferred mice and it took quite some time to switch them back. If faced with this situation again I will probably fast these snakes for a few weeks rather than offer mice.

Phil

Good thoughts and points to ponder Phil!!!! I luckily have never had a pit become fixated on a certain thing, but do see the downfalls of that happening, that is for sure!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Rats are where it's at, especially for pits. My entire colubrid collection (100 breeder snakes) gets almost nothing but fuzzy to small size rats, and have for many years. Only my mountain kings and lamprohis get mice. No problems-healthy snakes and large, fertile clutches every year!
-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Thanks for the input from everyone, he accepted the f/t mice that i gave him-didnt have any rats and didnt know the last time he ate. After he deficates i will try again with rats and see if hes picky or a pig.

Thanks John, I was going off old info from Lloyd Lemke and Walter Broda. Anyway, I feed both and have had no problems.Now ofcoarse I only feed mid size to adult rats to my larger pits.

L8r Shannon

See, who says gambling's wrong? Winning snakes in bets --- that's gotta be cool.

reako45

Yeah, now if i can just get her to bet more often, hah.