Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For those of you that provide paperwork with your hets, do you have examples you could share (feel free to write VOID on it if needed)? I'm developing my own and am curious how everyone designs theirs. Basically I have my business logo at the top, followed by the paragraphs from my TOS about my het guarantee, then a photo of the het the paperwork belongs to with the animal's ID number below, then underneath that I have pics of both parents and their ID names, then a blurb about how I confirm all of the above, blah blah blah, and a line for my signature and date. Does that sound like what you would expect from paperwork when you buy a het?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Sounds good Jen-the main points for me are the parental pics and the wording of the guarantee....If they are possible hets (from a het to het breeding) I'd of course include documentation of the origin of the parents....
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I'm curious. Why are pictures of the parents so important?
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I like the pictures of the parents just for more info
I find it interesting to see what the parents look like
and maybe after you start hatching more babies from the new one you can refer back to see if they have traits of the parents

just more info really
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Misty Sprouse Ball Pythons

I always want to see pictures of the morph parent of any het I purchase. Just makes good sense to me.

Only one breeder that I've purchased hets or phets from has included the pictures of the parents on his genetic paperwork. That breeder is Justin Kobylka. Justin sent me the best paperwork I have received from any breeder and that includes most of the "big boys". He even laminates his paperwork, which is something I planned to do before I saw Justin's. Very nice touch Justin.

I guess it depends on what kind of person you are. Some people want to do the very least they can get by with and others want to go the extra mile to set themselves apart from the pack. I certainly plan to be part of the latter group.
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Louis Kirkland
Cornerstone Reptiles

Judging by the responses to last weeks threads about responsibility – I think the following should be included in your genetics paperwork.

1. Picture of the animal as well as description of it’s genetics
2. Your guarantee verbiage including:
----Buyers responsibility as far as what breeding, how many eggs, what communication, etc. would be expected to uphold their end of the guarantee.
----Breeders responsibility as far as what can be expected if the animal does not prove out.
----In the event the animal changes hands what guarantees are transferred if any.

I do not think that the parents pictures are necessary except in the case that there is something in particular that would call for them – something that might suggest that there is a higher degree of quality or something special about this line then the average morph. It doesn’t hurt to include it – but as a buyer I’ve done my homework, I’ve seen the parents and I’m comfortable with you before I’ve put my money on the table – in comparison whatever paperwork you give me isn't really worth squat.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

This is what my het guarantee TOS are (on my site and on my paperwork):

All PLC-produced hets carry a guarantee to produce a visual morph by at least the second successful breeding, provided that it can be proven that the animal was bred only to a visual morph or proven 100% het of the same genetic the PLC het is carrying. I also require that no fertile eggs were lost from the clutch (as they could have been the visuals). Guarantee is void if the PLC het was bred to multiple males (if female), or to an unproven or non-100% het mate carrying the same genetics (one that is a possible het or has not been proven to produce morphs by the current owner). Guarantee is also void if any fertile eggs are lost after the clutch was laid. If all conditions are met, the PLC het can be returned for refund of original purchase price plus interest for growth based on market value, or credit toward another purchase.

If PLC hets are transferred or sold to another party other than the original purchaser, I will only maintain responsibility for the genetic guarantee if the original signed paperwork is still accompanying the animal(s) for verification that it is indeed my animal (based on photo and pattern ID). If there is no paperwork or any way of proving that the animal was produced by me and guaranteed as a het, then I have NO responsibility for that animal or its claimed genetics.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I think this is a good start but feel it would not hold up in any court for either side. That being said, it's more about making the buyer feel better about the deal. Any real legal document for a het would span several pages of legalese and would require an attorney to decode it.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Jay you beat me to it, lol
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The Crawl Space

IMO - it's less about what would hold up in court and more about knowing what's expected and erasing "assumptions" in the event that something goes amiss.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

>>IMO - it's less about what would hold up in court and more about knowing what's expected and erasing "assumptions" in the event that something goes amiss.

I agree, but in doing so, you would have a fairly large document. Not just one sheet with a picture of an offspring and one or two paragraphs.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

What really matters is the person your dealing with. A seller can write anything they want but if they have no intention of standing behind it then its useless. A good breeder will honor an agreement even without paperwork.I guess you have to do your homework when buying hets and not just rely on what type of paperwork comes with it. Unless the industry standard has changed it use to be one breeding to a visual morph with an average size clutch or 2 breedings with the het male. I bred my het clowns last year and missed on any visuals, so this year will be the deciding factor. I notified the breeder so he is aware. I didn't get any paperwork from him but since he has been around since I started 12 years ago I don't even worry about it. I give a general Certificate of Authenticity.. it has a pic of the snake, my guarantee which is simple to understand. It is signed and dated then it gets laminated and sent along with the animal.
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The Crawl Space

>>What really matters is the person your dealing with. A seller can write anything they want but if they have no intention of standing behind it then its useless. A good breeder will honor an agreement even without paperwork.

I agree!

I didn't get any paperwork from him

I have purchased from some of the "biggest" breeders and the only paperwork I EVER received from them was an invoice. Personally, I provide a color picture of the offspring, genetic statement, and details pertaining to the sire, dam, birth date, etc.

It's also signed. More important, is that I stand behind my animals. I know what I produced and Karma is a good thing!

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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

you have lots of unintended exposure in all that wording. two clutches [of any size?] going het x het won't always work. it doesn't always work going visual x het. there's lots of ''if the buyer does this or that'' in there. how are you going to know?keep it short and simple [jay martin, right again, don't know him, but he seems bright] and most importantly, keep flawless track and records on your end so you have absolute confidence in what you are selling. if i buy a het from dan and collette, it's not the paperwork that gives me confidence, it's the fact that i know, they know, what they are doing. do a great job, cut no corners, and you won't have many problems. best of luck, kurt d.

way too much exposure. KISS (Keep It Simple Silly)
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Jen, no doubt you've been reading what everyone has been saying about simplicity.

My opinion? 100% hets. are just that- 100% guaranteed- and should be easy for anyone to prove out.

If your paperwork includes these things:
-Pic of Sire
-Pic of Dame
-Pic of offspring being guaranteed
-Declaration of genetics
-Guarantee that the genetics are correct (you can throw in all of that stuff about what you will do if the animal does not prove out, but why? You have already guaranteed the animal - if the original buyer is not happy with the animal it is most likely because they want to get out of breeding or have replaced it with a visual.)
-Your contact info and signature
-Weights, dates, etc if you'd like

If your paperwork includes these basic things you should be alright. Too much clutter and the buyer will start looking for loopholes if they are a dink.

As far as 50% hets. go... you could do the same thing without the genetic guarantee and simplify the declaration of genetics to something like "This animal has a 50% possibility for carrying the "X" gene. We cannot conclusively guarantee this animals genetics without breeding it."

If I am going to buy an animal from you, you are going to have my money in your hand before I see the paperwork (since the animal would have to be shipped)... so obviously I've instilled some level of trust in you beforehand. Make the customer feel comfortable and they will be content with whatever level of paperwork you provide. That is why some of the "big boys" get away with not sending any paperwork... people trust them.

I won't be producing possibles, I don't breed het x het, only het x visual.

My concern is having people get shady and demand refunds years down the road just because their odds suck or they put an animal with my het that isn't a het itself. Like if someone buys one of my hets, breeds it to another het that they bought from someone else, produces no visuals in 2 clutches, then they want their money back from me when the problem is with the other animal. Or they breed my het to a visual, but lose a bunch of eggs from the clutch that could have been the visuals or bred a second male to her and that male ended up fathering the offspring and not the visual mate. I feel like if I don't cover all these areas, people could just demand refunds years later when they don't need the het anymore and just use the fake excuse that it didn't prove (when the fault lies in their breeding, odds, clutch size, egg loss, whatever). I uphold my guarantees and I back every animal I produce -- but I feel it is less headaches this way.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors