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Why is it considered a hybrid if you cross a corn snake with a rat snake. From what I have read everywhere the corn snake is a red rat snake. And most of the color morphs in the corn snakes come from breeding corns to diffrent colored rats. So I really don't see the diffrence here. I know that rats get alittle bigger in size than corns but thats pretty much it. Someone please help me to understand this.

You know, I was wondering this same thing!! I recently asked about a pairing between a snow corn and a black rat and i had ppl telling me how "Against" hybrids they were and how it's screwing up the trade! It's a RAT snake to a Rat Snake regardless of it's name,(elaphe guttata guttata x elaphe obsoleta obsoleta)!!

I live in an area where both corn snakes and rat snakes are common. The rat snakes are nearly all black striped and have black, grey or greenish between the stripes. And occasional snake may have some orange/yellow particularly near the head. The underside starts white at the chin with increasing grey/black blotching toward the tail. The corns are varying shades of brown/orange with black around the plotches and two very faint ratsnake-like stripes and usually "dirty-wash" grey on the sides. Rat snakes often exude musk when handled. I'm not sure corns have this capability. Corns are generally more docile than ratsnakes.

The two animals in nature thus do not look alike, and have different behaviors. The big thing is even though they have ample opportunity, the two snakes rarely mate in nature. Their pheremones don't match. One has to put a male of one in a cage with a female of the other and give them no choice of who they mate. Even then, it may be necessary to trick them into mating.

Besides being obviously different in appearance, the fact that they do not mate in nature, despite having ample opportunity, is what makes them different species.

The fact that corn snakes and rat snakes are diffierent species is really no different than the fact that corn snakes and kingsnakes are different species except it is probably easier to breed a corn to a rat snake than to a king snake. All the Elaphe, Lampropeltis and Pituophis species are potentially intrahybridable. I mated a corn-king male to a corn-bull female and now I have 9 corn-king-bull snake babies.

Bigfoot

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have both rats and corns with super great tempers and I also have both with really bad tempers also. As far as the musk I guess I havn't ever smelled a corn snake musk before. But All books and most all articles on the net starts out with a classifaction of a corn snake. And with in the first three sentences they all refer to the corn snakes as a (red rat snake). Yes for the most part I can tell a pure corn from a pure rat most of the time. How about a butter corn, its a half and half. And so many more new corn morphs are half and halfs. But everytime I mention breeding a corn to a rat people start hounding me about them being unpure (hybrids). I found this link on one of the threads I read, probally here on kingsnake and it has most all the corn breeding recipes and I would say close to half of them has emoryi in them. I have never heard of a emoryi corn snake before. But Im also fairly new to the trade. I am still waiting for someone to make a good strong point as to why they are considered hybrids. And why breeding them together is a bad thing. I also have jungles to and I understand why thats a hybrid but I must say that has to be one of the most beatiful colubrid out there. I am considering dropping the cash into a mandrin rat and try some crosses to see what you get.

They're hybrids for the same reason that a California Kingsnake x Florida Kingsnake is a hybrid-they result from breeding 2 different species. Regardless of the fact that both parents could be ratsnakes, kingsnakes, milksnakes, or pine snakes, if different species are bred it results in hybrid offspring. You seem to think they aren't hybrids because corns are ratsnakes, but there are numerous different species of ratsnakes which vary significantly in apperance, distribution, size, habitat, and behavior.

Actually, in the example you just gave, these 2 snakes are subspecies, so that mating would produce an intergrade, not a hybrid. A hybrid is the result of 2 different species being bred together. Alot of people become horified at the prospect. I wouldn;t do it myself, but if you want to do it, and you honestly represent your offspring, more power to you.

Ok. Sorry, I'm seeing the big picture now. It is the same as bredding a ball python to a green tree python or a burm. Even though they are pythons they are diffrent speices. I understand now. I can't believe I didn't think of that before I started this thread. Thank you Kevin for waking me up. But even so I still plan to keep my projects rolling with the rat x corn crosses and the jungles. Who knows when the next great thing might pop up. Pure breds are great but theres nothing like a hybrid of any kind. I mean look at dogs for instants. I Bred dogs for over 15 years and pure breeds all ways had something going on with them. They had to see a vet for one thing or another because of gentic issues to the breed. Where as a few of my recuse yard dogs which was mixed breeds never got sick nor did they ever have any gentic issues. I honestly think they were alittle bit smarter than the pure breeds. As of now we have no dogs, but If another one was to be gotten it would be a pound puppy mixed breed.

I am not a hybrid supporter, to each their own.

However, look at the Ultra gene for Corn snakes. It is widely accepted now that the ultramel corns got the trait from breeding a Gray Rat into a Corn Snake, that combination "unlocked" the ultra trait in corns.

....Corn Snakes do musk! The smell isn't as strong as other snakes', but it is there - especially when they are hatchlings.

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Diego

A hybrid is any cross of two different species. Elaphe gutata and Elaphe obsoleta are both the same genus, but the species is different. The first name in scientific nomenclature is the genus, and the second is species.
Also, one characteristic which is used to define species, is that they don't reproduce in the natural environment. But this goes out of the window in dealing with snakes in captivity.
Steve Osborne (Professional Breeders) told me that he didn't know of any North American colubrids that when crossed didn't produce fertile offspring.
Paul