Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was curious if anyone has tried outcrossing abbotts stock to lets say a "natural" Motley? and what the results were when bred back into each other, or if anyone has anything that resembles a motley Abbotts?

thanks
Adam
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

I haven't done it personally, but others have also talked about this very thing,....but the motley gene, as well as the stripe gene tend to really mute down the vivid dark coloration of the "Abbott Okeetee", which would sort of defeat the purpose.

I'm sure it would look better than some, but to what degree?, maybe some others can chime in and maybe post some pics of this combination.

I agree that theoretically they would look awesome, but I don't think it produces the outcome that many would expect.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Good point on the muting of the color, i hadn't thought of that, and your right any color muted would defeat the purpose of the beautiful abbott line, thanks for the response

Adam
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

their are some people working on a line of striped oakeetee's and they are claiming that the black is still present but not to the point of an oakeetee.
adam jeffery
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"CARLOS MENCIA FOR EL PRESIDENTE"
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 crimson corns
1.1 striped ghosts
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.3 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 eastern milk (eatin pinks)
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

I think Aztec might work better
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V.P.
Austin Herp. Soc.

that was my next thought.
Adam
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

I will point out on behalf of all of the "okeetee" naturalists, that if you outcross it with a normal then it should technically not be considered an abbott "okeetee" any longer. Unless you find a motley in the hunt club area you will always be met with resistance on this topic. (and probably if you did also)
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Cleopatra"
0.0.2 Crested Geckos "Vinnie" & "Cadence"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

>>I will point out on behalf of all of the "okeetee" naturalists, that if you outcross it with a normal then it should technically not be considered an abbott "okeetee" any longer. Unless you find a motley in the hunt club area you will always be met with resistance on this topic. (and probably if you did also)

I understand your point. But bloodreds were outcrossed and are still bloodred. I know not exactly the same thing. But on the first crossing of an Oak, lets say babies are 50% Oak. Breed babies to each other to get new gene and those babies are still 50%. Now ya have a motely 50% oak I presume. Cross back that to a "pure oak. 75% oak hets. Breed all the 75% hets back to a pure oak. 1/2 should be 87%oak hets. Fuss to prove those by breeding back to a second parellel project of 87% hets. OK, I'll stop

This may be the totally wrong way to do this, as it is not my area at all. But, it seems to me you can outcross and add back "purity". At what point do you have to give in and say it's an oak again? I'm sure some okeetees waunder off into the bad parts of corn breeding areas near Jasper and GASP, hook up out of town with a common corn. OK trying to be funny.

It may take a long long time, but after many years of working the pure Oak line to an [outcrossed (to pick up a gene)] and breeding back pure stock, at some point, me personally, I'd call it an Oak. It may not being number of generation, but quality and consistancy of ALL the babies born.

Just a thought.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

...so is the concern that was raised.

To those who don't follow the strict locality line will agree with you that eventually it is an oakeetee again. However those, in general, are also the people who identify oakeetee corns as a "phase" or general appearance rather then a strict locality bloodline/heritage.

Meenwhaile those who identify oakeetee as strictly a locality and not a coloration or "phase" will not, in general, agree to anything without 100%pedigree heritage being called oakeetee.

Essentially it just comes down to which of those two schools of thought you most identify with.

I tend to fall into the oakeetee "phase" camp myself as I do not think we have any inherent right to tell nature what the final natural form of anything would be(i.e. that any change is somehow unatural or impure). That being said I respect the interests of those who want to keep pure lines and their freedom to do so. Unfortunately because of market and general lack of records it is dificult for them to confirm a snakes ancestry. Regardless of the specifics(locality, hybrid, etc..) involved I am for full disclosure of animal history and genetics whenever a animal is sold or given away.

Sean Briggs.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Agree, never seems to be one answer. But what happens if you apply this outcross and breeding back to a "something you started with"

Now apply this to hybrids. Breed a corn to a gopher and get some hybrids. But if you breed back 20 generations to "pure" corns will you consider it a pure corn? Some will some won't. Some will say this happens in nature and we don't realize it. Others will say once a non corn gene enters all off spring will never be corns no matter how long you breed back.

I hate to be political, but I see both sides. If I take 1 situation, a corn breeds to a gopher for example, but those babies breed to corns for 200 generations. I think I'd give in and say it's a corn.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

I understand both sides but favor the one that allows working back towards purity.

A big reason of this(beyond what I said earlier) is that in domesticated animals we have accepted breeding in mutts while still calling the lines "pure" for ages. This has only recentloy begun to change and the negative effects on the pedigreed canine population is already visible.

In the past many if not most of your working/hunting dog breeds would routinely have breeders mix in a mutt stud every so many generations. This prevented the negative effects of inbreeding and more specifically would eliminate those effects in F1 offspring. It even used to be part of the "working" breed category of some registeries that you were officially allowed to breed in a mutt every so many generations(for some reason 7 comes to mind but that might be off).

OK bad linebreeding rant off lol.

I am not trying to endorse hybridization in general but merely pointing out the negative results of a absolute pure line stance. In general I think the best option is to keep lines pure as long as you have a broad enough captive gene pool and avoid inbreeding/linebreeding issues.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

>>
>>Meenwhaile those who identify oakeetee as strictly a locality and not a coloration or "phase" will not, in general, agree to anything without 100%pedigree heritage being called oakeetee.
>>
>>Essentially it just comes down to which of those two schools of thought you most identify with.
>>
>>

In that thought I must point out the IMPOSSIBILITY of proving 100% okeetee locale.

WHAT? you say
THAT'S RIGHT. I say

simple scenerio....A corn snake living 10 miles from the "okeetee zone" (which is under constant debate) mates with another corn snake from that area. The babies hatch and spread out in all directions. These babies mate with other snakes and spread out. One of these snakes that has no lineage connected to the "zone" happens to cross the road into the hunt club and is caught a week later. That snake is called an OKEETEE. It is instantly "documented" as a true OKEETEE because there were witnesses that saw this OKEETEE caught on hunt club property.
Guess what? That corn snake is no more "OKEETEE" then any bred in captivity, if you follow the locale specific guidelines.
Same scenerio in reverse...Two corns that were actually born in the zone, to snakes that were also born in the zone, breed and their eggs hatch in the "zone". These are about as "OKEETEE" as you can get. Now the survivng hatchlings spead out and breed and their offspring spread out and breed. Lets just say one, or several, of these "OKEETEES" crosses out of the "zone" and are caught somewhere "out there"? If the person who catches them is honest then these true okeetees CAN NOT be called "OKEETEES" in the locale specific guidelines. These true okeetees are now just wild caught corns.
So, simply put...you can't prove it so it basically becomes a mute point.
Then you can also go back to the origins of the okeetees. Some nice specimens were caught around the area and then these were selectively bred to get the "look" we are most familiar with.
Were only snakes from the zone used or were others used to help enhance that look? Some will honestly say they only used animals they caught there and some will lie and say the same same. Unfortunately it doesn't really mater because they don't truly know their lineage.
AND a lot of the early breeders were releasing reject or throw-away hatchlings in the hunt club area.
So, you KNOW there is non locale specific blood in the area and you CAN'T KNOW where animals caught in the zone were born or where their lineage is truly from.
TOO ARBITRARY to be reliable.
This will probably piss many people off but unfortunately it is hard to deny the simple facts.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I love it.

It is a great debate due to the small locale of the okeetee.

I guess the same can be said about alterna, as they name them for roads and intersections.

Thing is no guarantees on anything. I had a lady bring in a monkeytailed skink she caught on her porch in CLEVELAND!!! She asked if I knew what lizards live in Cleveland.

I just so happen to know a gal that lost one. This is a CITES I animal. I explained the entire situation to the lady and she took a free leopard gecko from me. The gal reimbursed the shop for the leo.

So, we had a Monkey Tailed Skink Cleveland locale. OK OK just joking. OR??????? With so many corns in captivity. And someone loses a lot of Miami corns in Virginia? Far fetched? Rather close to me is a very hot stop of a particularly nice hot rattler. Story is a guy many many years ago, had a LOT of these little guys. he passed and the family just released them. Now they were in proper locale. But I'm sure somewhere someone has lost critters back to the wild to throw off locale blood line.

Phew, long way to go just to say,,

Now what if they were all hybrids?

>>>>
>>>>Meenwhaile those who identify oakeetee as strictly a locality and not a coloration or "phase" will not, in general, agree to anything without 100%pedigree heritage being called
oakeetee.
>>>>
>>>>Essentially it just comes down to which of those two schools of thought you most identify with.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>In that thought I must point out the IMPOSSIBILITY of proving 100% okeetee locale.
>>
>>WHAT? you say
>>THAT'S RIGHT. I say
>>
>>simple scenerio....A corn snake living 10 miles from the "okeetee zone" (which is under constant debate) mates with another corn snake from that area. The babies hatch and spread out in all directions. These babies mate with other snakes and spread out. One of these snakes that has no lineage connected to the "zone" happens to cross the road into the hunt club and is caught a week later. That snake is called an OKEETEE. It is instantly "documented" as a true OKEETEE because there were witnesses that saw this OKEETEE caught on hunt club property.
>>Guess what? That corn snake is no more "OKEETEE" then any bred in captivity, if you follow the locale specific guidelines.
>>Same scenerio in reverse...Two corns that were actually born in the zone, to snakes that were also born in the zone, breed and their eggs hatch in the "zone". These are about as "OKEETEE" as you can get. Now the survivng hatchlings spead out and breed and their offspring spread out and breed. Lets just say one, or several, of these "OKEETEES" crosses out of the "zone" and are caught somewhere "out there"? If the person who catches them is honest then these true okeetees CAN NOT be called "OKEETEES" in the locale specific guidelines. These true okeetees are now just wild caught corns.
>>So, simply put...you can't prove it so it basically becomes a mute point.
>>Then you can also go back to the origins of the okeetees. Some nice specimens were caught around the area and then these were selectively bred to get the "look" we are most familiar with.
>>Were only snakes from the zone used or were others used to help enhance that look? Some will honestly say they only used animals they caught there and some will lie and say the same same. Unfortunately it doesn't really mater because they don't truly know their lineage.
>>AND a lot of the early breeders were releasing reject or throw-away hatchlings in the hunt club area.
>>So, you KNOW there is non locale specific blood in the area and you CAN'T KNOW where animals caught in the zone were born or where their lineage is truly from.
>>TOO ARBITRARY to be reliable.
>>This will probably piss many people off but unfortunately it is hard to deny the simple facts.
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>> Draybars Snakes
>>
>>_____
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

i agree that it shouldn't be called an okeetee after mixed with something else, alittle quick to throw that in. but it definatly would a be a valuable point in trying to sell the offspring that there is okee blood in it, especially Abbott stock. i am more curious about the end result though, not the value/marketability of the animals.

Adam
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results