Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm kind of disturbed by the amount of wild caugh animals sold on the classifieds. I'm very reluctant on people taking snakes from the wild simply to make a profit. I am even more so bothered when it is incidents that involve specimens that are readily available in the pet trade from captive breeders. I understand that specimens becoming readily available is relient on individuals taking them and producing them, but when I'm seeing wild caught babies being sold without attempt at producing captive bred offspring it just seems greedy. Any thoughts?

What particular species are you talking about?

The wild-caught vs captive born & bred issue runs deep and has for years. Imports are big money makers because a lot of people just want a snake, without any care or knowledge of the problems imports cause.

Most, if not all, states have laws against selling their native wild-caught snakes. But that's not to say that it won't happen.

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I'm pretty certain my posts replying to this message was deleted? Could it be because I pointed out specifically the add I was speaking of? Also the reply to the post of mine deleted is gone.

Ha! Yepper, somethin' definitely happened. For the sake of continuing the discussion let's not be so specific. I suppose I could take some blame for asking you about specifics. Further talk about deleted posts will create more deleted posts, so let's just start all over right here.

I always try my best to view both sides with an open mind and I try not to be too critical or judgemental. Now, I'm not saying that anyone here has been, so don't take that the wrong way.

Anyway, for the most part, I feel that as long as there are plenty of CBB reptiles available there's not much reason for selling WC. I do feel that there are possible exceptions, though. One could be the availability of a particular locale or morph.

Fortunately, I don't think it's a rampant practice and should be left up to those of us in the reptile community to control with our decision to purchase them or not, rather than getting the government involved with their hideous laws & regulations.

I can see regulating the harvesting of protected and/or endangered species. I've seen it said that if the species is rare (endangered, I presume), that nobody should be allowed to take any from the wild. In general, I'd probably say I agree. However, I feel that history has proven that a species' best chance of survival is for it to be made available to private keepers.

One only has to look as far as the Eastern Indigo to prove many conservation points on both sides of the fence. We have the harvest of the wild causing their decline, as well as developement. But also look at how many there are in captivity, most likely forever preserved.

The bottomline is: NOTHING stands a chance of survival due to man. Not even man. We are by far the biggest invaders quite simply because of what it takes for us to live these days. You see, in the old days we coexisted; But today we're more self-seeking. We've got to have that big, brand new house, shopping center, cinemaplex, theme park, etc... We have to keep paying irresponsible people to have more babies, which learn irresponsiblity and government dependance.

Ahh, heck, I'd better stop there. You get the idea. We have noone to blame but ourselves. Are we doing our part to make this a better place for our kids, grandkids?

First order of business would be to get rid of all the snakes in Washington DC.

Ahh, I feel a lil' better now.

Have a great day!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You make some great points. I suppose as with almost every issue it isn't simply black and white. I do know that I have a very hard time supporting the selling of wild caught snakes when captive bred are readily available, and I agree it is in the hands of us herpers to choose not to purchase these, and I suppose when they aren't any cheaper people won't. I guess it is a tough issue as to what are the proper actions if a species is rare or endangered, is it best to leave it alone, where it still may face the challenges of habitat loss and forest defragmenting, or is it best to breed them and produce them in the market? Then it gets into the issue as to who has the right to do so? I also grapple morally with the whole issue of keeping snakes or animals in general as pets. One thing I do know is that I always want to have a conservationist and environmentalist attitude towards this industry. I want to preserve.

> > > I guess it is a tough issue as to what are the proper actions if a species is rare or endangered, is it best to leave it alone, where it still may face the challenges of habitat loss and forest defragmenting, or is it best to breed them and produce them in the market? Then it gets into the issue as to who has the right to do so?

Bingo! You've got it.

I don't think zoos or similar programs should be the only ones given the chance. There are some zoos with excellent breeding programs in certain species but I feel that all-in-all, they are not the best suited. I feel that a species' best chance of survival will come from experienced private keepers/breeders.

No, it's not always black & white, cut & dry. However, in my eyes, a dealer that sells U.S. native WC when there's an abundance of CBB, and there aren't any locale or morph advantages or any other viable exceptions that I'm not able to think of at the moment, only cheapens their integrity. Now, that is if in fact they are trying to make a buck by freely taking without an effort to produce on their own.

That's about the equivalent of picking a dozen roses from your neighbor's rose garden and then trying to sell them back to him. Sooner or later people catch on.

With that said, we all are human, too, though. We all make mistakes or bad decisions sometimes. It doesn't mean that we're bad people, though. The good people don't continue to make the same mistakes, that's what sets us all apart.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

ok. I think my earlier post got axed as well since it was a reply to a deleted post but that's O.K. I don't believe I said anything unusual or mindblowing anyway. I won't say it all again but if anything seems fragmented that's probably why. first, to reply to something that was said a moment agor:

"I can see regulating the harvesting of protected and/or endangered species. I've seen it said that if the species is rare (endangered, I presume), that nobody should be allowed to take any from the wild. In general, I'd probably say I agree. However, I feel that history has proven that a species' best chance of survival is for it to be made available to private keepers."

I believe the context you mention this in is that a species doing poor in the wild on the brink of extinction can be saved by being bred in captivity. It may not remain wild but the species at least won't go extinct and be preserved forever. Later, re-introductions would be possible.

I do agree with this but have another twist to include. There have been many cases in which a species has been illegally hunted for its precious extracts or for its horns to the point of near extinction. Some governments have taken to breeding these animals on massive scales and selling them at market not to directly help the species, but to drive prices so low that poaching them from the wild would be unprofitable. I can't think of a snake example but it's just a thought that came to mind.
In regard to the thought of saving a species by preserving it in captivity, I do not agree that it is an appropriate way to conserve an animal. When you do this it seems to me like it's just preserving a species from a genetic standpoint: it still exists and is reproducing. To me conservation means doing everything possible to keep a species in the wild where it belongs. If it's also in captivity then great, that's fine as long as they are cared for properly. I just feel like we have something of a moral obligation to preserve these animals in their pristine and wild state.

One thing that bugs me is how so many captive reptile hobbiests butt heads with conservationists. Shouldn't we all be working together? It just annoys me to see conservation biologists and state wildlife officials talking down about the reptile owners and how they would plunder the native populations if allowed. On the other end I see the hobbiests getting frustrated when the state won't let them collect certain species or any species at all. I feel like there needs to be more open dialog between the two groups. Hobbiests need to talk with conservationists about their goals and clearly explain when and why they feel they should be able to collect an animal from the wild and conservationists need to be a little more open about hearing them out and explaining when and why some species should not be collected. In general I think the wildlife biologists and field herpetologists know if it would be harmful to collect from the wild and where it will be ok. Unfortunately they aren't always the ones that make the laws or issue the permits and that causes a lot of problems.

As I stated before, I generally do not support the taking of animals from the wild if it can be avoided or if it may do harm to the wild population. There are exceptions, though, and not just ones that have been mentioned so far in this thread.

Well this is a first for me. I've never seen the only three participants of a thread so able to see things from both sides of the fence. Ha! I like it. Wish more people would at least try harder to do so.

> > > In regard to the thought of saving a species by preserving it in captivity, I do not agree that it is an appropriate way to conserve an animal.

No, it's not what I call "conservation," it's what I would call "salvation." Only as a last means. By all means, conservation of the species' habitat and the species itself is the first step.

> > > I believe the context you mention this in is that a species doing poor in the wild on the brink of extinction can be saved by being bred in captivity. It may not remain wild but the species at least won't go extinct and be preserved forever. Later, re-introductions would be possible.

You got it! That was my train of thought, which is what I mean by "salvation."

What's truly ashame is the fact that conservation usually only begins after a crisis is already under way.

And, yes, we need more open dialogue, open lines of communication.

Incidentally, I saw both of ya'lls earlier posts. Thankfully I didn't have time to reply then or else all three of us would be rewriting. Hahahaha!!! I lucked out on that one.

Ya'll take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I agree, haha,I really like everyones open minded thought processes. I would also like to just compliment the point about the two sides butting heads, because at the core of everyone's interests is these animals, and that should truly be the main issue.

I'm glad you mentioned the "butting heads" issue because that's something I forgot to mention in my last reply.

You'll also see a lot of butting heads between the scientific/academic community and the general "pet" reptile community. Why? Strong opinions, beliefs, theories, experience, etc... However, like "anuraanman" said about the other groups, we NEED each other and should be working hand-in-hand. What's up with that?

"Can't we all just get along?"

Ha! Ha!

Maybe one of these days.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

yeah. I think part of why I'm open to this now is that I've been on both sides of the "fence". When I was a kid I loved catching things and looking at them in the wild but became very quickly attached to keeping them in captivity and observing them at close range. Some time in high school I was sucked out of that world and looked down upon people who took anything from the wild -- I even stopped liking the idea of supporting any herp pet trade as it certainly impacted the status of wild populations. I slowly came around to seeing that it doesn't have to be that way and as long as you try to support CBB when possible and that WC animals are captured by people who care about the conservation of the species then it should be OK. There ARE people who don't care and it's a shame that these people are able to sell things and turn a profit from what might not have been legally sanctioned catches.

In VT there was been some discussion about making it legal to take any S5 species without a permit and to keep them for up to two weeks (though nothing came of it for technical reasons). I think that it is important for kids to be exposed to these animals and it's somewhat unfortunate that teachers can't legally bring them into the classroom. The permit process is quite an obstacle and most people aren't even aware that it exists. As it happens, snakes aren't really under a threat of being collected for sale or breeding up here -- it seems that the only species we have that are popular in the pet trade are also rare, threatened, or endangered in the state as well as widely available for cheap CBB so it isn't really a problem (Black Rat and Racer are the two biggies -- nobody seems to want our milksnake though).

People are very quick to hate these animals and kill them on sight but in my experience the same people are often as quick to change their ways after having a couple good and friendly exposures to snakes. Showing someone and letting them handle a 6-foot Black Ratsnake without anything bad happening and explaining their diet and life history often is enough to prevent them from killing snakes in the future. I think that's one of the beauties of having snakes in captivity -- you can't always just walk out into a field and pick up a giant snake to show someone who is wary of the animals but you can go into your house and pull one out of a tank and accomplish the same sort of progress.

Your points, all of the above, are well-taken. That said, seeing w/c on the classifieds almost ALWAYS makes me bristle. Depending on the species, etc...Sometimes I bristle alot, sometimes just a little. With a VERY few exceptions, most of which you guys mentioned, I'm just plain AGAINST it. My .02
Duffy