Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 1.1 100% het Genetic Stripes. They are both big enough to breed. My question is, if you could loan the female out to someone with a Breeder male genetic stripe would you loan it and make stripes and 100% hets and split the clutch or would you breed your hets and make possible hets and stripes?

Also, I have breeder male spider and cinnamon. I have two breeder female albinos. I could loan the albinos out and make double het albino pieds, snows and/or albino clowns or make my own spider and cinnamon het albinos. If you were in my shoes, would you loan them out and split clutches (and if yes would you do pieds, snows or clowns) or would you just make het spiders and cinnys?

I hate the idea of splitting clutches, but it seems like I'd end up with better things and better projects. If I keep everything, I would have have more quantity, probably, but not as cool animals. So I guess the question was just simplified, Quantity or Quality???

of what you decide, keep in mind that there are many ways a breeder loan could go bad. I would only contemplate one with someone I trusted implicitly.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I agree. If they weren't VERY good friends of mine I wouldn't have ever considered it.

ESPECIALLY with good friends - be sure you have a signed contract between you, clearly defining expectations, who is responsible for vet bills of the loaned animal, replacement value of the loaned animal should it die, etc. You don't want to destroy a friendship over what "could" go wrong with an implied rather than written agreement.

thank you

I have 1.1 100% het Genetic Stripes. They are both big enough to breed. My question is, if you could loan the female out to someone with a Breeder male genetic stripe would you loan it and make stripes and 100% hets and split the clutch or would you breed your hets and make possible hets and stripes?

Two thoughts on this:
1.) Loaning her out would kind of be the same as wasting the money you spend on the het. male (at least for this year).
2.) I would only do this if I was guaranteed a homozygous GS out of the deal (IF one hatches).

Also, I have breeder male spider and cinnamon. I have two breeder female albinos. I could loan the albinos out and make double het albino pieds, snows and/or albino clowns or make my own spider and cinnamon het albinos. If you were in my shoes, would you loan them out and split clutches (and if yes would you do pieds, snows or clowns) or would you just make het spiders and cinnys?

Again, two thoughts:
1.) Get a pair of normal females (or whatever you can afford/floats your boat) to breed with your Spider and Cinny males.
2.) Quantity means nothing without quality. If you DO loan these females out... I would want at least a 1.1 pair of the double het. offspring. I may sound greedy to some... but that would be the only way I'd do it.

As far as which combo to go with? That's entirely up to you.

I hate the idea of splitting clutches, but it seems like I'd end up with better things and better projects. If I keep everything, I would have have more quantity, probably, but not as cool animals. So I guess the question was just simplified, Quantity or Quality???

Sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I'd stick with my own animals. If I was going to do anything, I'd try for the albino clowns, but your projects sound plenty fun enough. Like a previous poster mentioned, loaning out the genetic stripe female is just wasting the male.

I'd only try for the albino clowns if the male you're breeding the albino to is a clown - no way of knowing if the pair you pick is a guaranteed het, otherwise. And no matter how well I knew the other person, I'd draw up a contract stating any and all terms (such as you'd get a 1.1 pair of the 100% hets) before any snakes changed hands.

Good luck!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

I'm doing a breeding loan this year with genetic stripes. I have the adult het female, and a buddy of mine on a forum that I have known for 3 years sent me his visual g-stripe male. The terms we agreed on were that if only one visual g-stripe hatches, I get it, and he will get the remaining hets (plus some extra hets from the g-stripe x normal clutches we're doing) to equal the value of the g-stripe. If there are 2 visuals, we both get one. If there are 3, I get 2, he gets one plus the hets to equal it out, and so on and so forth. If there are no visuals, then we split up the hets. The reasoning for this is that he already has the visual male, but I need one, plus I am doing all the work of breeding them, incubating the eggs, and feeding his male while he is here. In addition, if I end up with the one visual baby (or more visual babies than he does if there are 3), then I am sending him some spiders and/or mojaves from my own personal breedings (and/or het clowns) in order to even out the deal because he doesn't have those morphs yet. On his end, he is breeding his cinny male, which I don't have any of, so we will be trading up quite a few babies once all is said and done. In the end, it works great for both of us.

I personally don't want to produce possible hets, and want better odds of visuals, so I'm only doing visual x het (and visual x normal breedings for 100% hets). That's why I wanted to do the breeding loan. He was going to send his clown male as well to go with my adult het clown female, but I ended up being able to buy my own clown at Tinley time.

I think breeding loans are great as long as the terms are laid out in writing before any animals change hands, you trust the person well to hold up their end of the deal and care for your animal as you would, and both parties are happy with the outcomes. There needs to be a bit of flexibility as well.

As for your albinos, I would do a breeder loan with someone who has a clown, g-stripe, pied, or some other high-end visual recessive to make double hets. My albino girl will be big enough later this season for me to put her with my clown -- now THAT is a project I'm stoked to get working on.

Good luck no matter what you choose!
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

thanks!!!

Loaning your het female to a homozygous male is a tough question.

There is no standard really for how to split but in general favor would go to the owner of the more valuable snake and also to the host of the breeding. I think it would not normally be the case that someone would loan out a homozygous stripe male because of his value and the fact that the owner could be rotating him through other females in addition to the breeding loan het female. So the owner of the homozygous male will often not only have the more valuable animal in the pairing but will also be the host.

But looking at it from the het owner's side your could keep the het female at home and breed it to a relatively inexpensive het male and expect about 1/4 of a clutch of homozygous and 3/4 clutch 66% possible hets. Bred to the homozygous male that would be 1/2 clutch homozygous and 1/2 clutch hets but even with an even split that comes out to 1/4 clutch homozygous for the het female owner. If you give the owner of the homozygous the first/odd picks that would on average loose another 1/2 of a homozygous animal (half the time there would be an odd number of them) so from the homozygous offspring standpoint you might be better off by ½ a morph on average keeping your het at home. The main advantage for the het female owner might be getting 1/4 clutch (minus the on average 1/2 baby for odd numbers if the male owner picks first turn) of 100% hets by doing the loan rather than 3/4 clutch of 66% hets. But even from the het side you should well end up with more het offspring breeding your own het X het rather than doing the loan to a homozygous male. You should get half a clutch of hets from breeding het X het you just wouldn't know for sure which ones they are out of the ¾ clutch of non stripes but odds are there are twice as many hets in there as you would get from the loan.

So, with an even split it would come out much better for the owner of the homozygous male than the owner of the het female. But there may be other good reasons to do the loan like helping out the homozygous owner and helping to produce more morphs quicker and perhaps getting an unrelated pairing.