Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I bought an 05' "female" borneo blood python from a well known east coast breeder who's been breeding snakes for the last 3 decades. I bought the snake at a reptile expo in June 06'. Since I have known and dealt with this breeder since I was 12 (I'm now 21) and knowing his history with breeding I didn't 2nd guess the genders of the snakes he sold me. I bought a trio 1.1 05' marbles, and 0.1 05' borneo. I started cycling about 2 weeks ago and have the genders separated. the male marble in one cage and the female marble and female borneo in another. I noticed when I got up for work 11/27 that the borneo female seemed to be attempting to copulate with the marble female. I couldn't check then so I made it a point to probe the snake when I returned home from work. When I got home the snakes looked the same. I probed it to about 8 subscales. At this point I placed it with the male marble. What followed next I took pics of. The "female" borneo tried copulating with the male marble. I e-mailed the guy and here's the conversation:

The normal female borneo I got from you at the June Expo is a male. I can bring it to Hamburg if you would like to check it for yourself. If it does turn out to be a male what would you like to do about it?
thanks,
Matt

Matt, You can bring it if you want but it is a femal;e. They probe depper than other pythons & females will actually pop out too & looks very similar to a male but smaller. As far as what I will don about it, well now you got it in June 5 mos ago so I can't honestly do anything at this point

So you're telling me that if it does turn out to be a male you won't take it back? How many bags of rodent food would I have to buy for them to be $10/bag? A guy offered me $12/bag at Hamburg for the same food.

These are pics of the normal borneo and the male marble:
I sent him the 3 pics at the bottom of the snake he sold me as a female attempting to copulate with my male.

Matt, I cannot sell the lab block @ $10 per bag. It costs me $9 plus
gas to pick it up. The cheapest I go is $13.50 to p[eople who buy @
least 10 bags at a time. I have to find out who sells it for $12 as my
rep gave me southern Pa & Md & no Va as exclusive sales area for me. As
far as the snake goes I don't take snakes back at all from anyone. My
charge card reciepts even state " All Livestock Sales Final---No
Refunds or Exchanges" so people using credit cards can't get
chargebacks if they decide they don't want it for some reason.
Considering this has been almost 6 mos you tell me any other business
where you can buy something & then return it 6 mos later. Sorry

Now you don't have to tell me that I should have probed the snake when I got it because I know that but considering the snake wasn't the nicest blood i've seen, is about 4', and that this breeders experience with snakes exceeds the amount of years i've been alive I didn't 2nd guess him. Also female bloods probe to 3-5 subscales which isn't much different to the 2-4 that female balls do.

Also, in his 2nd e-mail to me he talks about what his charge card receipts state which has nothing to do with me since I paid with cash, nor have I ever gotten one from him. I definitely feel screwed especially since i've bought about $10k worth of snakes from this person and there has been a couple of other incidences when i've either had a snake that was sold out from under me etc... Being young, naive, and loyal I still dealt with this person since they were really the first person I bought snakes from and I felt they looked at me as more than "just a customer," but I guess not.

One thing to other breeders is don't be a** holes towards your customers, you'll make much more if you treat them with respect.

I'm just writing this to get people's opinion on the situation. Any feedback is appreciated.
thanks in advance,
Matt Oakley

I have to agree with him about the Blood. If you had found this out 5 days after you bought it, I think he should make some effort to rectify the situation. However, 5 months is a different story. I really don't think he owes you anything since it was an honest mistake made by him AND also by you.

I think he should offer to cut you a break on a female if he has access to one, but after 5 months, I think the missexed animal is yours. Are you sure your other male is a male (I couldn't tell from your post)?
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Thanks for your opinion. Yes, I'm sure the marble is a male, he's showed me many times, lol.

Even though it sounds like he made a mistake, I think I agree with him too. I also think he was sufficiently polite given what you're asking for.

If it's been 6 months, chances are he doesn't even remember the transaction and I don't think you can expect him to. As far as he knows you could have just changed your mind or be trying to scam him. I'm not suggesting you are, but people do such things and he's trying to make a living.

(Trying to low-ball him on rodent food in the same conversation might not have helped either.)
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

This is someone i've dealt with for the past 9 years, which I have been a regular customer of and been to his house many times etc... There's no way he doesn't remember. He knows me personally. Plus, I can give you info on any transaction i've mad with someone for the past 4 years, it's called record keeping. If I was trying to scam him I wouldn't have said I can bring the snake to you and have you probe it yourself. This is not a small breeder, taking a snake back and selling it to someone will have no affect on whether or not he can pay his bills...

Also, I didn't try to low ball him on food, I have no idea how much he pays for it until he told me. I was offered $12/bag on it from another sell and I asked him if he could go $10, I was planning to buy however many bags he said I needed to to get a better price. When I place a snake for sale at $500 shipping and someone asks me to do $250 shipped, that's a low ball. When someone knows they're asking you to sell something for way less than it's actually worth.

>>If I was trying to scam him I wouldn't have said I can bring the snake to you and have you probe it yourself.

You would if you had bought the snake from someone else as a male and were trying to get him to refund the price of a female to you. That's a fairly common type of scam.

However, if you know the guy as well as it sounds from this last message, I agree he probably knows you're not trying to scam him.

>>This is not a small breeder, taking a snake back and selling it to someone will have no affect on whether or not he can pay his bills...

It certainly could if that snake had aquired OPMV or something in the 6 months you had it and came back and infected his animals or ruined his reputation becuase he sold it to someone else. And knowing you doesn't protect him from that.

>>Also, I didn't try to low ball him on food, I have no idea how much he pays for it until he told me. I was offered $12/bag on it from another sell and I asked him if he could go $10, I was planning to buy however many bags he said I needed to to get a better price. When I place a snake for sale at $500 shipping and someone asks me to do $250 shipped, that's a low ball. When someone knows they're asking you to sell something for way less than it's actually worth.

I guess we have different definitions. I would call shopping around for the best price you can find and then asking someone to take 15% off of that counts as lowballing. And I'm not saying that there is anything in paricular wrong with that in itself, just that it didn't seem wise to do that in the middle of trying to negotiate a return/echange that depends somewhat on him believing that you are going to be a customer worth having in the future...
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Thanks

Hi!
I've been in business for myself in the floorcovering installation business for 15yrs now and I strive for that "personal touch" between me & my customers. I don't know for sure how I would've handled this situation if I were the dealer but I see both sides.

The dealer/breeder has a point with it being 5 months since purchase. I understand your reasons for not double-checking, too, but, it is your responsiblity to do so ASAP.

You said you "feel screwed" but based just on the info you've given it doesn't appear that the dealer intentionally sold you something other than what it was supposed to be.

Your disgust most likely was felt in the e-mail you first sent him. A lot of times it's not what you say, but how you say it. And like Larry mentioned, it probably wasn't a good idea to try bargaining on feed in the same e-mail you make them aware of a problem. At least, not in the way you said it.

On a strictly business standpoint, all sales are NOT final if you receive something other than what it's supposed to be. However, the timeframe is too big for normal adjustments to be considered or expected.

Your having spent $10K with this person should invite some personal exceptions. I strongly suggest letting things settle and taking the snakes with you to the next show & talking to the breeder in person, politely. You don't have to suck up, just be polite. Some might call it sucking up but I call it an investment protection.

> > > ...there has been a couple of other incidences when i've either had a snake that was sold out from under me etc...

I'm not saying this is the case here in your situation, but, play with fire long enough & you will get burned.

> > > Being young, naive, and loyal I still dealt with this person since they were really the first person I bought snakes from and I felt they looked at me as more than "just a customer," but I guess not.

There are some people that are strictly business, with no personal touch. In doing business with these people we have to keep ourselves in check and make sure we keep it business. Requesting a probe at the time of purchase is not out of line.

Unfortunately, it usually takes situations like this to open our eyes. Just be thankful that you're not losing any more money than you might be in this case and chalk it up as a leaning experience. You'll learn as time goes by who to conduct personal business with and who to conduct strictly business with.

I'm not saying that non-personal, strictly business, people, are bad; not at all. I'm jut saying know who's who.

I met a very well known, big time breeder at Daytona for the first time. Within 2 minutes of our conversation I knew that even if I spent $100K with this person that it was going to be nothing BUT business. I liked the person, they seemed nice. They're just strictly business. (No, TC, I'm not talkin' 'bout you. Ha!)

I hope ya'll can come to an agreement and maybe even create more of a personal touch between the two of you. But always remember how it's well known that one shouldn't do business with family & friends as it most always turns out bad. One expects more out of the other or something along those lines.

Hang in there!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thanks for your in-depth response, i've gotten a lot of feedback from a lot of different people and i'll do just that, chalk it up as a learning experience...
thanks again,
Matt

If I had a loyal customer who had spent 10k over the years with me I'd try and do something for them.
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Jason

I rarely check this forum but I thought I'd post on this situation. I don't know the breeder and I don't know you, but I believe that if you have spent that amount of money with the guy over several years, he should be willing to be a bit more helpful than "That's my policy, sorry". That's the answer you give to the guy that's a new customer and spends $100 on a snake. Sure, the guy has to make a living, but anyone who is successful in business knows that you take care of your customers...especially the ones that return and spend money. Who cares if it's five months. You told him the situation and he knows you're not jerking him around. As far as the rodent chow, I don't consider asking $2 off per bag any kind of lowballing. Not everyone has loads of money and it never hurts to ask for a better deal on anything. If he said no then take his offer or go elsewhere.

Thanks for your time and response