Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I bought an 05' "female" borneo blood python from a well known east coast breeder who's been breeding snakes for the last 3 decades. I bought the snake at a reptile expo in June 06'. Since I have known and dealt with this breeder since I was 12 (I'm now 21) and knowing his history with breeding I didn't 2nd guess the genders of the snakes he sold me. I bought a trio 1.1 05' marbles, and 0.1 05' borneo. I started cycling about 2 weeks ago and have the genders separated. the male marble in one cage and the female marble and female borneo in another. I noticed when I got up for work 11/27 that the borneo female seemed to be attempting to copulate with the marble female. I couldn't check then so I made it a point to probe the snake when I returned home from work. When I got home the snakes looked the same. I probed it to about 8 subscales. At this point I placed it with the male marble. What followed next I took pics of. The "female" borneo tried copulating with the male marble. I e-mailed the guy and here's the conversation:

The normal female borneo I got from you at the June Expo is a male. I can bring it to Hamburg if you would like to check it for yourself. If it does turn out to be a male what would you like to do about it?
thanks,
Matt

Matt, You can bring it if you want but it is a femal;e. They probe depper than other pythons & females will actually pop out too & looks very similar to a male but smaller. As far as what I will don about it, well now you got it in June 5 mos ago so I can't honestly do anything at this point

So you're telling me that if it does turn out to be a male you won't take it back? How many bags of rodent food would I have to buy for them to be $10/bag? A guy offered me $12/bag at Hamburg for the same food.

These are pics of the normal borneo and the male marble:
I sent him the 3 pics at the bottom of the snake he sold me as a female attempting to copulate with my male.

Matt, I cannot sell the lab block @ $10 per bag. It costs me $9 plus
gas to pick it up. The cheapest I go is $13.50 to p[eople who buy @
least 10 bags at a time. I have to find out who sells it for $12 as my
rep gave me southern Pa & Md & no Va as exclusive sales area for me. As
far as the snake goes I don't take snakes back at all from anyone. My
charge card reciepts even state " All Livestock Sales Final---No
Refunds or Exchanges" so people using credit cards can't get
chargebacks if they decide they don't want it for some reason.
Considering this has been almost 6 mos you tell me any other business
where you can buy something & then return it 6 mos later. Sorry

Now you don't have to tell me that I should have probed the snake when I got it because I know that but considering the snake wasn't the nicest blood i've seen, is about 4', and that this breeders experience with snakes exceeds the amount of years i've been alive I didn't 2nd guess him. Also female bloods probe to 3-5 subscales which isn't much different to the 2-4 that female balls do.

Also, in his 2nd e-mail to me he talks about what his charge card receipts state which has nothing to do with me since I paid with cash, nor have I ever gotten one from him. I definitely feel screwed especially since i've bought about $10k worth of snakes from this person and there has been a couple of other incidences when i've either had a snake that was sold out from under me etc... Being young, naive, and loyal I still dealt with this person since they were really the first person I bought snakes from and I felt they looked at me as more than "just a customer," but I guess not.

One thing to other breeders is don't be a** holes towards your customers, you'll make much more if you treat them with respect.

I'm just writing this to get people's opinion on the situation. Any feedback is appreciated.
thanks in advance,
Matt Oakley

If the sellers TOS has passed, and wasn't notified within that time frame, I really don't think he should "have" to give you any kind of compensation. After all, you did agree to those terms, and it really shouldn't become personal. If he does, great, if he doesn't lesson learned. Mis-sexing will happen to the best keepers. Maybe not so often, but it will happen. Blood Pythons can be hard to sex, and Females can be mistaken for males especially if they do evert. You can also push that probe right through the pocket, even if your careful in not doing so. Before buying anything in person, I will probe and double check. Same thing goes for any animal that is shipped to me. Nobody should take offense to you wanting to sex the animal yourself, if they do, walk away and find someone who isn't such a jerk about it.

Just remember the Karma factor - Though not in this situation, but it sometimes works to your advantage if you receive a mis-sexed animal. I bought a nice male Mandarin Rat Snake; I just about paid dirt for the thing, and six months later it just about tripled its value when I found out it was a Female. Sooner or later it will happen.....

Mis-sexing will happen to the best keepers. Maybe not so often, but it will happen. Blood Pythons can be hard to sex, and Females can be mistaken for males especially if they do evert. You can also push that probe right through the pocket, even if your careful in not doing so. Before buying anything in person, I will probe and double check. Same thing goes for any animal that is shipped to me. Nobody should take offense to you wanting to sex the animal yourself, if they do, walk away and find someone who isn't such a jerk about it.

We didn't make any TOS agreement or did he show me any. If I sell a snake to someone and I missexed it I feel like I would owe them some typo of compensation, at least giving them this difference is price for a male and female at that time. I'd expect a snake that's been in a 30 yr experienced breeders collection for 2 years would have been correctly sexed.
thanks for your time and response,
Matt

All to many people eventually come to this point in time when all the "Top Breeders"eventually show their "human" traits.

Just move on and chalk it up to Experience.
Time is the metal that test metal.
-----
TnK

Thanks

Hey Matt,

IMHO, you are both right , if it is the wrong sex, you should have verified and he should be willing to do something. Again IMO, NOT a full exchange since so much time has passed. Like you said this is a customer related business and I feel the breeder should be offering something.

There's probably nothing you can do about it other than take your business elsewhere.

>>I bought an 05' "female" borneo blood python from a well known east coast breeder who's been breeding snakes for the last 3 decades. I bought the snake at a reptile expo in June 06'. Since I have known and dealt with this breeder since I was 12 (I'm now 21) and knowing his history with breeding I didn't 2nd guess the genders of the snakes he sold me. I bought a trio 1.1 05' marbles, and 0.1 05' borneo. I started cycling about 2 weeks ago and have the genders separated. the male marble in one cage and the female marble and female borneo in another. I noticed when I got up for work 11/27 that the borneo female seemed to be attempting to copulate with the marble female. I couldn't check then so I made it a point to probe the snake when I returned home from work. When I got home the snakes looked the same. I probed it to about 8 subscales. At this point I placed it with the male marble. What followed next I took pics of. The "female" borneo tried copulating with the male marble. I e-mailed the guy and here's the conversation:
>>
>>
>>The normal female borneo I got from you at the June Expo is a male. I can bring it to Hamburg if you would like to check it for yourself. If it does turn out to be a male what would you like to do about it?
>>thanks,
>>Matt
>>
>>Matt, You can bring it if you want but it is a femal;e. They probe depper than other pythons & females will actually pop out too & looks very similar to a male but smaller. As far as what I will don about it, well now you got it in June 5 mos ago so I can't honestly do anything at this point
>>
>>
>>So you're telling me that if it does turn out to be a male you won't take it back? How many bags of rodent food would I have to buy for them to be $10/bag? A guy offered me $12/bag at Hamburg for the same food.
>>
>>These are pics of the normal borneo and the male marble:
>>I sent him the 3 pics at the bottom of the snake he sold me as a female attempting to copulate with my male.
>>
>>Matt, I cannot sell the lab block @ $10 per bag. It costs me $9 plus
>>gas to pick it up. The cheapest I go is $13.50 to p[eople who buy @
>>least 10 bags at a time. I have to find out who sells it for $12 as my
>>rep gave me southern Pa & Md & no Va as exclusive sales area for me. As
>>far as the snake goes I don't take snakes back at all from anyone. My
>>charge card reciepts even state " All Livestock Sales Final---No
>>Refunds or Exchanges" so people using credit cards can't get
>>chargebacks if they decide they don't want it for some reason.
>>Considering this has been almost 6 mos you tell me any other business
>>where you can buy something & then return it 6 mos later. Sorry
>>
>>Now you don't have to tell me that I should have probed the snake when I got it because I know that but considering the snake wasn't the nicest blood i've seen, is about 4', and that this breeders experience with snakes exceeds the amount of years i've been alive I didn't 2nd guess him. Also female bloods probe to 3-5 subscales which isn't much different to the 2-4 that female balls do.
>>
>>Also, in his 2nd e-mail to me he talks about what his charge card receipts state which has nothing to do with me since I paid with cash, nor have I ever gotten one from him. I definitely feel screwed especially since i've bought about $10k worth of snakes from this person and there has been a couple of other incidences when i've either had a snake that was sold out from under me etc... Being young, naive, and loyal I still dealt with this person since they were really the first person I bought snakes from and I felt they looked at me as more than "just a customer," but I guess not.
>>
>>One thing to other breeders is don't be a** holes towards your customers, you'll make much more if you treat them with respect.
>>
>>I'm just writing this to get people's opinion on the situation. Any feedback is appreciated.
>>thanks in advance,
>>Matt Oakley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

The only thing as far as a partial exchange is concerned is now this snake is breeding size and worth more than he was at time time I bought him. I also understand your view.
thanks for your time,
Matt

I've had much worse done to me by some mighty big names in years past. Sometimes small people do deal in large snakes.
Honestly, still trying to work through a few things myself. After I go through enough mental masurbation and spew a bunch hatefull BS, I generally feel like and ass myself. And then I get over it. Sometimes I take myself way too seriously. I know that.
It comes with the turf, I guess.
As hard as I try, I can't honestly say I've never sold a snake with mites or an incorectly sexed snake. Don't know what I'd do if notified 5 months later.

But, back to your question. I think I've read through it sufficiently to ask this -- is it possible that you have mixed up the sexual pair of Marbles? Was that contengency considered? I know I've done that before.
Anyway, why you posting python pictures on the boa forum. Hey -- am I on the right forum here? Which forum am I on, anyway?
LOL. Smily face here. (still learning)
Sympathy and empathy for you, Brother.
Jusk keep on keepin on.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hey John, One piece of advice for EVERY person who sells any snake. TAKE PICS!!!!, Duh they are helpful in getting them sold but also KEEP copies. You never know when they might come in handy!!! I've used old pics to verify identify of snakes being sold second hand as produced by me.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I am getting real good about taking photos, temps. and weights of everything coming in. This protects me, as well as the person on the other end.

As far as screwing people goes, I'm a dinosaur. I've gone for broke and gone broke my share. That's for sure. Never felt a need to lie, decieve, scam, or take advantage of anyone. They're snakes we're dealing with for God's sake. Not used cars!

Just my opinion -- When it's all said and done, all you've really got is your reputation, that and the personal satisfaction from doing something you are passionate about and doing it well. Some make a living at it. Very very few get rich at it. Most people do it because they're fortunate to have the means.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Thanks for the other point of view on things. I have had a women tell me that a snake I sold her the prior year had mites. I have no idea what other snakes she had introduced to her collection in that time or anything and she wanted a full refund. Even though I hadn't had a mite problem in that time I still offered to buy her a can of prevent-a-mite which should have more than taken care of her situation.

The marbles are a 1.1 pair and were sold as such. The one I am referring to is the one referring to is the normal borneo. Or you could me did I mix up which one was the male and female at that time... I'm sure of their sex and this snake tried copulating with both of them... I took him out and placed him with the male to prevent the marble becomming gravid by the normal.

Oh, I just wanted to reach as many people as I could...

thanks,
Matt

IMO the seller has an obligation because mis-sexing is an error on his part, therefor it's not the animal that was advertised or sold. If the receipt says female, and it's proved to be a male, even small claims would favor the buyer. So why shouldn't the seller? Morally and ethically he should compensate you.

Personally, I don't care if it's GOD himself selling me an animal, if I see all sales final, I'll go elsewhere. Feel free to shoot me a name, so as I can avoid them.
-----
Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

Well, the way it's always been in this business is -- what you see is what you get. Buyer beware. No returns.
It's a total crap shoot. Risky business. No guarantees. You take your chances. You take that leap of faith. Life's lessons aren't free. You pay tuition for a formal education, don't you?

There's a good reason for this. You never know what the guy you just sold the animal to is going to do with it once it's in his hands and out of your control. You could easily be taking back a Boid thats been exposed to IBD and compromise your entire collection with a returned snake. The least case scenario is -- taking back a snake and infesting your entire collection with mites. To be safe, you'd have to quarantine a return for at least 90 days. What if you took it back and it croaked? You loose. That's what.

Heck, I once had a guy take a Rainbow Boa I sold him at a show out to his car, after I specifically told him not to do so. About 15 minutes later he brought the snake back in and said "I think my snake needs a drink". That snake looked like a pretzel!! Not 20 minutes earlier he had that snake and it's sibling stretched out straight as an arrow on his forearm, trying to decide which one to pick. Now it was toast! Steam came off it when I spray misted it with water. I said, " Dude you've just killed your snake!" He said, "No. It will be OK." Well a few days later he's calling me up, wanting me to give him a new snake and telling me I sold him a defective boa with IBD. It had died.
For one thing, if my Rainbow Boas had IBD, wouldn't the replacement snake be just as ill and defective? That didn't make much sense, now did it.

That's just a very short explaination on "WHY" we don't return snakes. Just exactly the same as electric component parts. You never know what that idiot did to it to make it "unsatisfactory". It's just not as simple as putting it back on the shelf for the next guy to buy.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The only thing with the "all sale final" issue is he has never given me a reciept stating this or even said it to me, ever... If I sell someone a snake as a female which with this case would be worth more, and it turns out to be a male I would feel like I owed them something back...
thanks for your time,
Matt

Hello!

Sorry, but the snake on the right doesnt look like a Borneo. I think its a Python curtus (Sumatran Short tail).

Andre

I don't know the Python c ssp. nomenclature/taxonomy very well.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I've been sold mis-sexed snakes many times, each time it was sold as female and turned out to be male. I never found out right away since I am just a part time breeder and at the time of purchase, just trusted what was said. I just chalked it up to a learning experience and now re-sex everything as soon as I get it.

Turns out I sold a mis-sexed snake as well! Complete accident, it showed as female to me each time I sexed it, turned out it was male. Well I felt like crap about that. It had been 3 years since date of sell. I offered to make it right but the guy was very reasonable and again, just chalked it up to a learning experience.

Realistically, if the TOS has passed (which can be anywhere from non-existant, 1 hour, 24 hours, 1 week, etc) there is no recourse. Personally, in my situation, I was going to offer the guy his money back and pay to have the snake shipped back or some other arangement, just for my piece of mind since I felt so bad about it. Did I need to do anything, no, not at all.

Also, just make sure it's 100% a mis-sexed snake, I've had two females together (I thought one was a male) and the smaller female 'courted' my big female for over a month! Tail wrap and everything. Snakes can be weird. heh.

Having a mis-sexed snake is a crappy place to be, especially when you have specific breeding plans, but sometimes we really just need to learn from the mistakes and move forward.

Good luck!
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

A couple of people have mentioned the TOS since he talked about it in his e-mail. The only thing is we never discussed the TOS, nor did he show me anything stating that all sales were finel, ever... Do to being pretty young in this business I post situations like this to get a collective view from more experienced people. Many people look at things, many different ways. Thanks for helping me to look at it from another standpoint...

Thanks for your time,
Matt

I don't know, yes it has been a long time, but you are a repeat customer and have spent a good deal of cash with the seller, IMO he should at least hook you up with something..but reading your posts it doesn't seem like he is very customer service oriented or cares.
I have had the same situation happen to me, but lucky enough the individual had a website and the TOS said "properly sexed" even though it was a yr later, I was refunded. I still do deal with this breeder- Why - because he made things right- This guy just lost your business forever..

certainly the guy who mis-sexed your snake at least owes you the difference in price between a male and a female at the time of sale, even at this late date. But beyond that keeping the customer happy is everything, because your reputation is everything in this business.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Thanks, I feel the same way...

Thanks Bill