Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Pixil, my young burm, just ate her first ever large rat two days ago. She's growing so fast I remember when I got her she could only eat mice or rat pups.
Anyway, I like to feed my snakes a variety of things, because I believe variety is good for both the health and wellbeing of any animal. My snakes currently eat large mice, rats, chicks, and gerbils. My question is, if Pixil can eat a large rat, can she eat a X-small guinea pig (like the ones rodentpro.com sells)? Also, I was thinking of getting some quail. If she is eating a large rat, what age quail should I purchase? Are quail healthier than chicks or no difference? How big are x-small rabbits in comparison to large rats? Does any place sell newborn rabbits? Rodentpro.com only sells 20-30 day old or older rabbits.

Sorry for so many questions, but I have one more:
Are there any other rodent suppliers that have websites that you can order online at? I like not having to call to place orders.

Thanks in advance!
Pixil after her large rat:

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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring this thread, but, I can't help you with these questions. I can understand the desire to feed a variety but I feel that it's basically like splitting hairs when it comes to feeding burmese pythons.

I'm not looking for a debate, in fact, I won't debate it, I just wanted to share my thoughts to explain why I don't know about what size fowl or whatever.

I have heard a few people say how stanky (stinky) a processed quail, chick, or some other fowl, is coming out of a burmese. Rats are bad enough for me. Ha! Ha!

I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I've heard that too. I've been feeding chicks along with other things and haven't noticed it yet. Of course, if you take the feathers off and really look, these chicks are TINY. That might be why they aren't making much of an impact nose-wise.
I'll probably finish off this bag and not order them again. They're so little that it seems like a waste of time for the snakes to eat them. That's one of the reasons why I was wondering about the quail. I can get them larger, so they're more worth the snakes' time.
I might order just 5, so if I don't like them I don't have to feed off a huge amount or throw it away (or give it to the dogs , I think Ozzie would like them).
I'd sure like to know how they compare nutritionally with chickens though.

I've finished two of my four finals, so I'm in a much less argumentative mood now, no worries

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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

Okay. I read that if you can see a lump after a large rat, you shouldn't feed guinea pigs yet. And I read that guinea pigs are fattening, so they should only be fed once in a while. So, until someone tells me differently, I'll probably skip on those for now.

But I still need to know about the quail and rabbits (how big are baby rabbits, anyway? Are rabbits healthier than rats?)
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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

> > > I've finished two of my four finals, so I'm in a much less argumentative mood now, no worries

Ha! Ha! We're ALL human. The good Lord knows that I ain't perfect.

I wish you well on your other two finals.

Here's you some nutritional data on whole prey items:
www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

I don't know how accurate this is, but I think it's close enough for our concerns. I saw it posted in the Monitor forum awhile back and just now remembered it.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

thank you SO much for that link. It seems to be great and exactly what I was looking for.
I'm off to read it vs. my quick skimming.
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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

Guinea pigs are rodents and typically rodents aren't fattening. Pigs are fattening, I think people get confused and think guinea pigs are pigs.

I feed 2 of my big girls (11 & 12 ft) 2 XXXXL guinea pigs every 10 to 14 days. My 15ft girl gets a 7-8 lb rabbit every 10 to 14 days. My 2 boys, both about 9ft get one XXXL guinea pig every 10 to 14 days to give you an idea of size of snake and size of prey.

Guinea pigs from Rodent Pro run the same size as rats, a medium rat is about the same size as a medium GP. We have found that it is more cost effective to feed GP's than rabbits because rabbits are usually more expensive. The shipping on rabbits is what really gets you.

As far as feeding fowl to your burm, I wouldn't recommend it. They can't digest all of the feathers and you are left with quils in their poop, not a pleasant sight, the poop is usually very messy. Not fun at all. Don't ask me how I know. The rabbits aren't really needed until the burm gets to 13 or 14 ft. Some people feed rabbits as soon as they can, but the snake will do fine on rats or guinea pigs.

Hope this helps,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

that helped a lot, thank you.
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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

I just looked at the link Mike posted earlier. It says that a neonatal male guinea pig has 34.7% fat and a 10 week male has 46.1% fat. Compare that to a rat, neonatal has 23.7, juvenile has 27.5 and adult has 32.6. A neonatal rabbit has 13 and a dressed carcuss??? has 15.8%. Finally a juvenile pig has 33.2%.

It looks like I'm wrong about the rodents have less fat theory. I wish they gave more info on adults and what is a dressed carcuss? I know what a dressed carcuss is, but what size rabbit is that and how much fat was removed with the skin?

If you go with the theory that rats are the perfect meal, than the best alternative other than rats would be pigs. Rabbits are very low in fat and I know snakes need some fat in their diet.

This really makes me wonder about how accurate is the information I've heard all these years and how accurate is this study? I have known people the have fed their burms pigs and they are usually fat snakes. I have personally fed burms rabbits for years and they weren't skinny snakes, I have been feeding 2 of my girls guinea pigs exclusively for over a year and they are by no means fat.

I felt confident in what I said earlier and now I'm not sure. I'd like to hear others input.

Here are a couple of pics of 3 of my girls. In my opinion they are all of a healthy size. The albino green is the one that gets rabbits.

Talk to you later,
Randy

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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

They look to be good weights to me, with the albino green being a little more chunky than the other, but it could just be that it looks larger because of the color. Light colors tend to do that. They're both very pretty.
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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

From what I can tell I believe the data in the report is fairly accurate. Actually, let me put it this way; I don't see anything that makes me question it. It seems to be in line with what I've heard and read. However, it's important to know that my knowledge of nutrition is basically of human consumption with a little bit of knowledge in prey items for some reptiles.

I can't remember ever hearing whether guinea pigs were high or low in fat so I can't really comment on that. I've always known pigs to be somewhat high in fat, though. While pigs have less fat (33%) than guinea pigs (46%), they have quite a bit more fat than rabbits (15%), and I've always heard that rabbits were lean, low in fat.

As far as rodents go, well......, let me say "mice & rats" since guinea pigs are rodents, too; Mice are 23% fat while rats are 32% fat. That puts rats on up there with pigs, which kinda surprises me.

I've read the whole report, Randy, and it doesn't say what size rabbit they used for the "dressed carcass" data. It does say, "Dressed carcass = eviscerated whole body with head, feet, and skin removed."

Randy said, "I have known people the have fed their burms pigs and they are usually fat snakes. I have personally fed burms rabbits for years and they weren't skinny snakes, I have been feeding 2 of my girls guinea pigs exclusively for over a year and they are by no means fat."

Here's where I think we get into the real nitty gritty. Metabolism Metabolism is sneaky and goes unnoticed a lot of time even by the most experienced keepers.

Let's take a look at Randy's comment in the above quote.
Pigs: By the time a snake is able to eat a pig it has aged and is of pretty good size. More often than not the snake's cage doesn't allow for proper exercise. Possibly due to it's age it's metabolism is starting to slow down as well. Now we have a combination that makes for fat or obese snakes.

Rabbits: With rabbits being the lowest in fat content and highest in protein, plus the age/size of a snake that can consume rabbits, we have the makings for a higher metabolism, thus typically a leaner snake. Throw the enclosure size of the snake into the equation and it should up the ante.

Guinea pigs: There again, the snake's size/age appropriate for guinea pig consumption, plus cage size = higher metabolism.

Something else that plays a part in a snake's metabolism is the conditions it's kept in. I can take two snakes of the same species, size & age, keep one within the low end of acceptable temperatures & humidity, keep the other one at the high end range or just slightly higher, and I can feed the 2nd one 1 1/2 times more prey and both snakes will grow at the same rate, or pretty darn close. Higher temps basically equals to higher, faster metabolism.

Well, I got a bit more into that I planned on. Ha! Sorry for the book. But that's my beliefs, my 2cents' worth on it. Anybody else want to chime in?

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Mike,

Thanks for the comment, I agree that metabolism plays a big part in the size of a snake. I guess I was amazed at how much fat was in a rat. Rats and mice are the basic prey item of the majority of snakes, maybe snakes need that higher fat content in their diet. Their metabolism is so different than ours, maybe the extra fat keeps them going between meals.

This is all speculation, I'm just throwing ideas around.

By no means am I debating you. I watched that in another post and want no part of it. Haha

Later,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Where's a scientist (Laura) when you need one? Heeheehee!!!

My post was just like yours, a speculation; and mine is definitely debatable. (By the way, I think I'm thru debating, I'm a lover, not a fighter. )

Since I've always known pigs to be high in fat and then see that rats have close to the same amount of fat, I was surprised about that, too. That's what made me do some "on the spot" thinking and metabolism is all that I could/can come up with.

The report states:
The crude fat content of most whole prey is much higher than the recommended
minimum dietary levels (approximately 5 to 10% of dietary DM) for domestic carnivores... ...Although prey body fat is a source of readily available energy for zoo carnivores,...

I'm drawing a blank at the moment for how snakes store fat prior to breeding and for the time between meals, and where this fat comes from. Laura might can shed a little more light on that.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hmmm, Huh? Oh, I'm awake!

I'm just half-heartedly following this thread, so let me see if I've got you right---where is the fat going? That would be to fat bodies along the abdomen as the first provider of energy. Next is lipid storage in the liver, and lastly, energy stores in the muscles. Although fat storage in the abdomen and liver are very important, it seems to be that energy stores in the muscles play a significant role in breeding, especially in males. Even if males have adequate fat storage, they may not engage in courtship behavior if they have inadequate energy storage in the muscles. I'm not sure how this compares in captivity, but in the wild, we can imagine snakes coming out of a slow period and cruising around looking for mates. It doesn't seem to affect females as much, when they ovulate, they're good to go! However, condition will affect the fertility rates, general health of the clutch, and the female during the breeding season.

Fat comes from diet in all animals who are consumers. One thing I wasn't sure about when I read this...If they are providing data on dressed carcasses, I'm presuming they are feeding felids in zoos and the like. How does that equate to us as herpers who feed the whole animal? Skinning removes a lot of subcutaneous fat, not to mention visceral fat removed with organs. The age of the animal says a lot about fat content as well. A jumbo ex breeder rat will have more fat than a large, younger one.

Just food for thought! Either I participated in the thread or my coffee got cold while I typed away about nothing.

Heck, if my burm eats ANYTHING, I'm thrilled! Apparently rats are not on the menu and I've just run out of guinea pigs unexpectedly. My frozen rabbit is way too big, so I guess I'm off to buy a fresh killed for an arm and a leg at the pet store.

sigh...this snake drives me nuts

Dang, gal, impressive! You go, girl!

Several months ago in talking about my first clutch of burmese pythons I was talking to Kelly Haller about dud eggs/infertility issues and she explained how she's experienced more infertility issues with males that weren't in the best of condition for breeding. Which is right in line with what you said.

Thanks for refreshing my memory on the fat storage, production, issue! It's coming back to me slowly.

Sorry your coffee got cold, I'll buy ya a few cups next time I come down. Ha!

That pet shop on 436 in Casselberry, you know, the one with the initials of "P.B." doesn't carry frozen rabbits? Go to local feed stores (I know, not that many around there) and ask who raises rabbits. I don't know what they cost from a frozen prey supplier but I can get 'em around here for $5 - $7 each. You should be able to find someone out Sanford way, for sure.

Thanks, teach!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thanks for the input Laura. See, all that schooling does come in handy. Haha.

Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

go to rodentpro.com they list the weight of the rabbits they sell

please re-read my origonal message.
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~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson