Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A while back you might recall Belle had some issues with sneezing. Then some very small noises coming from her head while breathing. I had her checked out and nothing came out of the cultures they took, but they suggested a change in substrate.

I have been trying this carefresh since then, and she does not sneeze while she's on it. I don't care for how it looks, and there are other problems with it too, like it's easy for her to pass by her water bowl and dump some of the carefresh into the bowl which is unsightly and impractical.

So I'm thinking of switching back, if she starts sneezing with the aspen I'll know for sure what's causing it. And I'll know I have to just get used to how the carefresh looks. Maybe the gray will look better, I don't know. She doesn't seem to mind curling up in it, it's soft. And it is easy to clean. But I wouldn't use it if it weren't for my perceived health reasons for using it.

Thoughts?

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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

>>A while back you might recall Belle had some issues with sneezing. Then some very small noises coming from her head while breathing. I had her checked out and nothing came out of the cultures they took, but they suggested a change in substrate.
>>
>>I have been trying this carefresh since then, and she does not sneeze while she's on it. I don't care for how it looks, and there are other problems with it too, like it's easy for her to pass by her water bowl and dump some of the carefresh into the bowl which is unsightly and impractical.
>>
>>So I'm thinking of switching back, if she starts sneezing with the aspen I'll know for sure what's causing it. And I'll know I have to just get used to how the carefresh looks. Maybe the gray will look better, I don't know. She doesn't seem to mind curling up in it, it's soft. And it is easy to clean. But I wouldn't use it if it weren't for my perceived health reasons for using it.
>>
>>Thoughts?

About a 2 years ago I did a survey;
and had had emails from snake owners of snakes with problems that went away once they switched them from aspen to sand or other non-wood product - a grayband with runny nose and 2 different rosies that were regurging. The owner truly thought these individuals were sensitive to the aspen (or the conditions it created) because of their rapid turnaround once removed from the material.
Another owner emailed me;
I have to say I totally agree with you about the sand. As well, I have had several problems with my kings on aspen or pine bedding. Especially if it has broken down into little bits - it seems to give my snakes allergies. I have now had three kings that, while on the aspen, with cage temps ranging from 70 - 81 degrees, get alot of mucus in their throat and noses. When I have switched them off of that to the turf, two days later they are fine.
Anyway I just wanted to view a few good points about sand.

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Don't use the gray carefresh - it's extremely dusty, and smells funky. Rodents kept on it in glass tanks almost always get RIs from the stuff. I hate it.

Have you tried compress coconut bark? The stuff you get in blocks and have to hydrate to use it? Once you let it dry out a bit, it's not too bad for kings to use to burrow in. I mixed some sand in with mine for my display setup and my king is having a blast making tunnels all over the place. The sand lets the tunnels hold up way better and it's easier to scoop solid urates and poop out.

Just something to consider.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Jenny do you have a picture of what that looks like in the tank? Thanks for the ideas.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

I don't at the moment, but I'll take some soon. I'm actually trying an experiment with the mix I'm using, so if it works I'll definately post about it.

A quick description of the mix, though, is mostly the coconut mix (about half a block), 2 qts of orchid bark, and a 5 lb bag of sand. That makes about a 4" layer of substrate in a 10 gallon aquarium.

The substrate feels and looks a lot like the dirt in my backyard, and since I live in Southern California, and find kingsnakes back there regularly...I figure it can't be too bad.

I can't remember what kings you have, but maybe you could check out what the soil is like where they're from? Maybe mix in a bit of untreated clay mix, or soil, with the coconut and bark, instead of sand if your snakes aren't from an arid region.

Good luck!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Have you tried T-Rex Calci sand or Zoo Med Repti sand? If so what did you think of it?

Scott D
0.1 Aberrant Sonoran bullsnake WC
4.3 Black kings
2.2 Desert kings
2.3 Florida kings hypos
3.2 Speckled kings
2.2 Eastern kings
2.2 Cal kings
2.3 Mex blk kings
3.3 Outer Banks kings
2.3 Goini
1.0 Thayeri king buckskin
1.1 Sinaloan milks
1.1 West Langtry Graysbanded kings
1.1 Eastern milks
2.2 New Mexico milks
0.1 Praire king
3.4 Arizona Mtn kings

Aspen dust (well, dust from any wood) can irritate the nostrils of some snakes, though it seems few. And surprisingly, dust from sand (like calcium sand) doesn't seem to produce the same effect in the few individuals I had that reacted to wood shavings like you describe.

I am a good indicator. Aspen dust makes my nose itch. So does pine dust. Sani-Chip (little hardwood chips) not as much. Calcium sand doesn't nearly. Coir fiber (coconut product sold in "brick" form) doesn't. I've had kingsnakes stay buried in coir fiber much of the time with no runny noses on their part.

You are not constrained to stay with wood or paper products. Sounds like it may be the convenience for you that drives that, or that you have reservations about sands/soils, etc. I'll shed some light - in the wild, kings live in dirt. They burrow in it and live amongst it their entire lives. I know that your king is not in the wild, but that fact is not a valid arguement. Don't fear the dirt.

A good dirt-like mixture is calcium sand mixed with some coir. More coir in the ratio means more capacity to hold moisture if you mist it. I have no formula exactly - I just mix to taste so to speak and see what happens. It does get into the water bowl and onto the floor, but if you are careful, you can minimize that. Conducts heat beautifully. Better than backyard dirt which may have harmful chemicals, pesticides, etc depending on where you live.

As far as feeding, if you are more comfortable feeding in a separate enclosure on paper, so be it. I couldn't say whether or not impaction is a true hazard on the mentioned substrate. I feed in the cage but on a piece of cardboard. Some snakes drag the rodent around in the substrate anyway. They are still alive (the snakes) after a few years on this substrate.

Another poster adds aquarium gravel to the mix and keeps sandboas on it.
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Mark

Thanks Mark, that's very interesting. My priorities as far as substrate go are !) snake health, 2) snake comfort, 3) aesthetics, 4) cleanliness*.

(*my wife may disagree with the order...)

But I'll have to look into this mixture, sounds like it would work well and look very natural.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

My wife's order of preference is:

1. No snakes
2. Nag me about the snakes
3. How the cages look.
4. More nagging.
5. Snake comfort.

A little different from my list I'd say.
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Mark