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R.I.? What am I doing wrong?

EddieF Dec 03, 2007 05:11 PM

I noticed my Kisatchie is making some noise when he breathes. A whistling, some clicks. I've read enough to know it sounds like an R.I. could be present. I'm taking him in tomorrow to get looked at, and I took a picture of his setup because I know they will ask me a bunch of questions.

Do you see anything really wrong with what I'm doing here? I love my snakes (have a kingsnake also) and try very hard to do everything right and provide a healthy environment. I feel like I'm a conscientious pet owner, even though I am relatively new to snakes. And I feel awful when I consider that the environment I'm providing isn't healthy.

Advice please, but be gentle if I'm doing something stupid. I'm really trying to do the right thing.

Thank you.


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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

Replies (28)

draybar Dec 03, 2007 05:15 PM

>>I noticed my Kisatchie is making some noise when he breathes. A whistling, some clicks. I've read enough to know it sounds like an R.I. could be present. I'm taking him in tomorrow to get looked at, and I took a picture of his setup because I know they will ask me a bunch of questions.
>>
>>Do you see anything really wrong with what I'm doing here? I love my snakes (have a kingsnake also) and try very hard to do everything right and provide a healthy environment. I feel like I'm a conscientious pet owner, even though I am relatively new to snakes. And I feel awful when I consider that the environment I'm providing isn't healthy.
>>
>>Advice please, but be gentle if I'm doing something stupid. I'm really trying to do the right thing.
>>
>>Thank you.
>>
>>

you may not be doing anything wrong.
The set up looks and sounds fine.
Is it possible your snake is in the "blue" or getting ready to shed?
They will sometimes get a clicking sound as the skin loosens around their nostrils before shedding.
Just a thought
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

EddieF Dec 03, 2007 05:18 PM

No, I think he's right inbetween sheds.

I forgot to mention humidity. It's hard to get humidity in there this time of year, I spray/soak him near shed time and he has good healthy sheds. But the rest of the time it's probably more dry than he'd prefer.

His appetite is awesome. And I don't see any mucus or bubbles or anything.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

HerpLover95 Dec 03, 2007 05:28 PM

Im not a total expert by any means, but could you posssibly raise the air temp? When I had my BP I provided all the surface heat he needed but I was lacking air temp. I use a 40watt zoo med bulb with a UTH for my corns. This leads to the same temps on the surface but raises the air temps up to match them.
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No, we're never gonna quit,Ain't nothin' wrong with it,Just actin' like we're animals - Nickelback, Animals

HerpZillA Dec 03, 2007 05:29 PM

Although the UVB light is on an aquarium lid, and if there is glass below it, that glass will filter a lot of UVB.

Super nice setup. I've never used carefresh, but I presume good.

If me, I'd drop the UVB light (10 is a desert herp light) and maybe a bigger water dish. Other than that looks great. And as ppl said, shed in the nostril can make crazy noises too.

Good luck.

>>No, I think he's right inbetween sheds.
>>
>>I forgot to mention humidity. It's hard to get humidity in there this time of year, I spray/soak him near shed time and he has good healthy sheds. But the rest of the time it's probably more dry than he'd prefer.
>>
>>His appetite is awesome. And I don't see any mucus or bubbles or anything.
>>-----
>>0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
>>1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

EddieF Dec 03, 2007 05:39 PM

Actually the light is just for light, we happen to have a leftover UVB from a lizard setup. My understanding is they don't need UVB, but I didn't think it would hurt anything.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

HerpZillA Dec 03, 2007 05:44 PM

They don't need it. But maybe that much could be harmful? I know a kid that put a 10% on his day geckos and it in a sense sun burned the skin off it. Finally healed up.

I guess I should ask, does he hide a lot? It might be a sign he does not like all that light.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

EddieF Dec 03, 2007 06:33 PM

Well, he does hide a lot I guess, sometimes warm side sometimes cool. But he's always been a little more introverted than my king. But I can do without the light for a while certainly.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

HerpLover95 Dec 03, 2007 06:41 PM

That's what I use for both of my Corns and my 2 Fire Belly Toads. It's not very strong but gives off natural looking light.
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No, we're never gonna quit,Ain't nothin' wrong with it,Just actin' like we're animals - Nickelback, Animals

HerpZillA Dec 03, 2007 06:42 PM

Let's see if we can get more views. I'm just a grunt.

>>Well, he does hide a lot I guess, sometimes warm side sometimes cool. But he's always been a little more introverted than my king. But I can do without the light for a while certainly.
>>-----
>>0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
>>1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

draybar Dec 03, 2007 06:54 PM

>>Let's see if we can get more views. I'm just a grunt.
>>
>>
>>>>Well, he does hide a lot I guess, sometimes warm side sometimes cool. But he's always been a little more introverted than my king. But I can do without the light for a while certainly.
>>>>-----

well, I guess I can add a little.
There are a few of my tanks that I use fluorescent lights on.
leftovers from fish or turtles.
I had a few ReptiSun 5.0 and ReptiGlo 8.0 bulbs that I used on snake tanks. Never really saw any difference between those and the ones with normal fluorescents or typical light bulbs.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Stregone Dec 04, 2007 03:03 AM

From what I've read snakes can see into the UV range a little, so a UV light will affect the way its environment looks to it. More like it looks in natural sunlight.
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My Pictures

DMong Dec 04, 2007 03:46 AM

My opinion is they really don't need it at all, as some other do, like Iguanas do for converting vitamins. As a matter of fact, they would probably like it much more, if you had no light at all on them, as Corns are more nocturnal than diurnal.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

laurarfl Dec 05, 2007 07:33 AM

I do not use UV on any of my snakes. The thing with corn snakes (and many snakes in the herp hobby) is that they are being bred more and more from the albino strains. These snakes have less protection from UV than their melanistic counterparts. Since snakes do not have eyelids, they are especially prone to eye damage from strong UV light. The correct term would be photokeratoconjunctivitis.

Since the topic is debatable and some use UV while some do not, it appears the least harmful way would be to use a light that corresponds to your species and provide a hide. So, a corn snake would take a 2.0, not a desert 10.0. I would also have the UV light on for less time than the lizards, maybe 10-3pm, mimicking the peak output of the sun.

HerpZillA Dec 05, 2007 10:05 AM

Like albino leopard geckos I guess. Although they seem to be sensitive to almost all light.

Seems simple, reproduce nature.

I just keep thinking of the snake in 10% UVB, not just UV,, he must be thinking, where did I get moved to the ******** Sahara?

Sorry, been dieing to say that, and the timing seeme perfect.

Image
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

draybar Dec 03, 2007 06:45 PM

>>No, I think he's right inbetween sheds.
>>
>>I forgot to mention humidity. It's hard to get humidity in there this time of year, I spray/soak him near shed time and he has good healthy sheds. But the rest of the time it's probably more dry than he'd prefer.
>>

Get a larger water bowl...one large enough for him to soak in.
Cover half the screen top.
this will help raise the humidity.
As I'm sure you know by now you don't need the Uv lighting but it also won't hurt.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

EddieF Dec 03, 2007 06:51 PM

Okay so if I get a larger water bowl and put it toward the back, then covered up the back half of the screen (where the light is now), just doing that will boost the humidity up a bit? The water bowl won't be on the UTH.
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

draybar Dec 03, 2007 06:56 PM

>>Okay so if I get a larger water bowl and put it toward the back, then covered up the back half of the screen (where the light is now), just doing that will boost the humidity up a bit? The water bowl won't be on the UTH.
>>-----

Yes, that can/will help raise the humidity.
It doesn't take much.
They don't need it very high.
But, if it doesn't seem to raise the humidity enough you could actually put the water bowl partialy over the heated side.
This can help the water evaporate quicker which will in turn, raise the humidity.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

EddieF Dec 03, 2007 07:06 PM

thanks for the feedback everyone. Should I stick with my plan to take him in, judging from what I've told you? Or should I make these environmental changes and keep an eye on him for another week or so??
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

draybar Dec 03, 2007 07:17 PM

>>thanks for the feedback everyone. Should I stick with my plan to take him in, judging from what I've told you? Or should I make these environmental changes and keep an eye on him for another week or so??
>>-----

If you were ready and willing to take him in I would go ahaead and take him in.
At least that way you will be sure.
Then you can incorporate a few minor changes and have a happy healthy snake for another 20 years!!!!
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

draybar Dec 03, 2007 07:18 PM

>>>>
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

EddieF Dec 04, 2007 09:07 AM

I decided this morning to make some environmental changes and keep a close eye on him for several days and see what happens. I'll keep you posted, thanks for all the great feedback!
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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

DonSoderberg Dec 04, 2007 06:50 PM

Questions:
1. When you say it's 85-90F in the warm-side hide, were you measuring the temp atop the substrate INSIDE that hide?
2. Is there enough substrate so the snake does not sink to the bottom from movement, closer to the heat?
3. Does the snake spend over 75% of the daytime hours in the warm-side hide?

Observations:
1. 85-90F is too hot. If you get that down to 80-85F, it should spend more time in that hide and therefore breathe less unheated air.
2. If the snake is not properly buffered from the heat in the warm-side hide, it will be forced to move away from that hide. The more it does this, the more likely it is to pick up a respiratory infection. (SIDENOTE: The more it's not hidden, the more retinal damage it will suffer from UV radiation. Without eyelids, it can only shield its eyes from such harmful radiation by hiding from the light. It will NOT do this unless the hide offers ideal digesting temperatures.)
3. A rat snake's instinct to hide is usually greater than its instinct to utilize temperate zones conducive to health. Hence, if your snake is not spending at least 75% of the daytime hours IN the warm-side hide, it is in danger of retinal damage and/or URI (upper respiratory infection).

Advice:
If you do not have a thermostat or rheostat controlling the UT heater (these are not necessary), consider increasing the substrate depth by at least one inch OR lay something on the bottom glass - beneath the hide - over the UT heater that will buffer the heat more. If you achieve 80-85F IN the warm-side hide, you will notice the snake spending more time in it, thereby reducing the chances of contracting respiratory complications from breathing the cooler air. Not to mention, it will not go blind prematurely. Under proper captive conditions, long-lived rat snakes will eventually suffer blindness. That affliction will be premature if they are not able (or willing) to protect their eyes from UV radiation. Not being albino, it's more capable of retarding the harmful effects of this radiation, but it will still go blind from over exposure to UV radiation. It's not a matter of IF as much as WHEN. BTW, being blind for a snake is not so bad. Losing their tongue or Jacobson's organ would be the equivalent of being blind in this animal.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the substrate you're using, but your snake would be better served if you used aspen bedding. They're both absorbent and neutral in chemical nature, but the packing nature of aspen lends itself to being a better buffer between your snake and the UT heater. It's never wise to heat corns solely from OT (over tank) heat, and seldom is it necessary to use OT heating as a secondary source. Therefore, UT heating is often all you need. It appears to me that as your snake moves around the cage, it is tamping down the Carefresh bedding beneath the water bowl and hides. If the snake subsequently gets closer to the heat source as a result, it will retreat from that hide. That's when the problems begin.

PS. Do you trust your thermometer? Have a back up and make sure they agree with each other. Also, remember this. The temperature in the cage is only crucial in one place. INSIDE the warm-side hide. Since that's where the snake will spend most of its life, it really doesn't matter what temps are happening outside that hide. Therefore, the thermometer should be one you know to be accurate AND you should monitor the temperatures in the cage at the precise level and location of the snake. Never put the thermometer on one of the glass walls of vivaria. We don't care what temperature the glass is even one inch above ground level.

Good luck,

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

EddieF Dec 04, 2007 08:15 PM

Don, what an awesome, comprehensive and thoughtful reply. I really appreciate it. I'll try to address your questions below:

1. Yes, when I said 85-90 in the warm side the probe is on top of the substrate inside the warm hide. The UTH is on a dimmer/rheostat and since I started getting feedback I have turned it down. But your explanation of WHY those temps need to be lower is really helpful.

2. There is enough substrate (more on that later) so he does not sink to the bottom, but I check under/inside the hide regularly to see if much of the substrate is displaced. In addition, there is one layer of reptile carpet directly on the glass over the UTH to take the 'edge' off that heat if he were to nestle all the way down.

3. No, he does not spend 75% of his time in the warm side hide. But I am now on a mission to see that he does.

Regarding the substrate, Butchie never had any problem with the aspen but my kingsnake really did sneeze when on aspen and has not since I switched. I see what you're saying about it, but between the other changes I'm making, I think I'm going to give the CareFresh a little more time and see if I can manage it. FYI, I put the water bowl directly on the bottom so he can't get underneath it. And he does tamp down the CareFresh elsewhere, but doesn't get to the glass and as I said, I do keep an eye on it regularly.

Thermometer. I guess I do sort of blindly trust it, but I will get another to make sure they agree. I will post a new photo of Butchie's tank, which now includes a larger water bowl, plastic over half of the top, and the UVB light is gone. You will see a thermometer stuck to the glass in that picture but I use that one just for humidity.

Your comments about the temperature, I really appreciate this new level of understanding - although it probably should have been common sense. I am new at this, however. But I would not have lowered temps in the warm hide if I wanted my snake to get warmer. But if he's not spending time in the warm side because he's too warm, then I was doing the exact opposite as he needed me to do. I believe your thoughtful response has made me a more conscientious snake owner. Thank you.

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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

HerpLover95 Dec 04, 2007 09:33 PM

That's Don for ya!

Thanks for clearing everything up. My mom was just reading your response and said " I have seen so many other people on these forums that will talk about temperature and I have no idea what they're trying to get across. And so far he's the only one that I can actually understand."

Good luck with your corn! Everything looks good

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No, we're never gonna quit,Ain't nothin' wrong with it,Just actin' like we're animals - Nickelback, Animals

EddieF Dec 04, 2007 09:48 PM

I increased (by a lot) the size of the water dish in my kingsnake's tank and she instantly came out to investigate! She seems to dig it. The first pic shows her setup, it's a 30 breeder to give you an idea of size, she's about three feet. The second pic is obviously out of focus but it shows her enjoying her water bowl less than an hour after I put it in there...


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0.1 Lampropeltis Getula Floridana
1.0 Elaphe Guttata Slowinskii

HerpZillA Dec 05, 2007 01:24 AM

First, outstanding post. But I, and others are not surprized, and why we love when the "big guys/gals" post. You have so much info to give.

On, to the thermometer placement. I argue with my boss all the time not to sell stick on thermometers. ANY type. It seems so logical, put it where the animal is. A 70 degree room, and a 80 degree glass probably means a 90 degree temp under a light. Cooler rooms make it worse.
I even show customers how 3"s can be 5 degrees at times. Most sadly just don't care.

I'm glad you memtioned that part. Along with all of it of course.

Thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

DonSoderberg Dec 05, 2007 08:34 AM

Thermometers look good on the glass. If they really cared about the welfare of the animals, they'd make ones that could be used anywhere in the cage.

Here in America, it's no longer about honor, integrity and function. It's about profit. It's sad, but quality and integrity take a back seat to profit. Have China make it for pennies on the dollar and churn them out for the highest profits possible. Who cares if it kills animals?
South Mountain Reptiles

HerpZillA Dec 05, 2007 09:57 AM

>>Thermometers look good on the glass. If they really cared about the welfare of the animals, they'd make ones that could be used anywhere in the cage.
>>
>>Here in America, it's no longer about honor, integrity and function. It's about profit. It's sad, but quality and integrity take a back seat to profit. Have China make it for pennies on the dollar and churn them out for the highest profits possible. Who cares if it kills animals?
>>South Mountain Reptiles

You sound just like me at work. I point to our shelves and ask, why don't you see all the commercial crap,,, because it's crap.
People are so use to flash these days. I paint my own bulbs (yes they are safe, and cost $0.50. I use to regrind my own mulch of various types to make it finer. But my carb needs and over haul on my chipper. $250 a giant bag of cypress I can make 15 quart size bags. Gee the commercial stuff is $4 a bag, ya don't have to be a math wiz to see someone is making a killing.

Old school baby! lol,, Well ya have to be old to remember it. If your lucky.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

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