Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
We've got a rescue Beardie over here, and she hasn't had the best life. While she's regaining mobility and size, she really just crawls/slides around because she has almost no movement in her joints. We believe that her previous owners didn't really give her the nutrition/lighting/heat that she needs, and she's around three years old now. When we got her she had a fungal infection on her face and was severely dehydrated. The vet said that he didn't think that she had MBD, but I find that hard to believe as she never had any calcium or UVB lighting. She now gets calcium sprayed on her food almost every day. She really only eats wax worms, which we realize shouldn't be a staple, but it's all that she takes. We offer crickets and sometimes she takes greens, and she used to take superworms but then started refusing them. She stays around 105-107F in the basking spot of her cage and the mid 70's on the cool end. She's undersized for her age.
If anyone has any idea what could be causing her joint stiffness or what we could do to help her, it would be greatly appreciated. If there's anything you need to know that I left out, let me know, and I'll let you know. Thank you, we very much appreciate it.
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

Are you sure its joint stiffness or is it inability to lift the body off the "floor"?

She lifts her front half up fine, just doesn't really walk very well. It's most noticeable in her hind limbs. What would inability to lift herself up indicate to you?
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

impaction, gout, MBD, spinal injury, too large prey item, genetic defect.

I suggest getting your dragon to a vet to do a complete examination including x-ray and blood work
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PHLdyPayne

Hi,
These are all things that we've considered... and she's been to the vet four times since we got her a few months ago. The vet here does not know what's going on with her. At this point, x-rays and such are simply out of the question because I'm a college student. I've taken her to several vets, and discussed several options. For the most part we've decided to take a wholistic approach, and try to treat what we can see and narrow things down as we go. She is, on the whole, healthy now. She eats, she poops (two things she definitely wasn't doing when we got her), she interacts with us and our other dragon (from across the room, of course), and she seems to be overall happy other than having difficulty moving. When she gets excited she can book it across the couch, that's for sure. We've got an order in for some higher calcium food that should be coming in on Tuesday (hornworms and phoenix worms), she's on a calcium supplement, and we're just offering her greens and not wax worms as we wait for the new worms, hoping that the anticipation will stimulate her appetite.
Impaction is not really a possibility, I don't think, as she has been passing food for over three months and she does not have substrate in her cage (it's a faux-rock display cage, about 4x2.5x3.5).

The only thing besides MBD that I see as possibly causing this, given her history before us and with us, would be a spinal injury. Do you have any tips how I could distinguish that from MBD? I haven't read up on it much, but I will now. Given her history with her previous owners, I think that MBD is very probably the cause, but I'm willing to look into whatever else it might be in order to help her get well.
Thank you for any advice, and if there's anything else you need to know that I've left out of this or any previous post, let me know.
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

Only way to tell a spinal injury is via X-rays, unless there is a noticeable bulge or bump over the spine or its misaligned.

Gout is a condition caused by long term dehydration which causes swollen joints and limbs which can be very painful. Crystals actually form in the muscles and joints. Proper hydration can help ease the symptoms of this condition but often it is not completely reversable.
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PHLdyPayne

Your basking spot temp which is a surface temp. is fine. The ambient (air) temp. should be in the high 80's. Your cool side temp. is fine. You should be providing UVB full time during the daylight hours.

You should have a weight scale and weigh and post her weight. This is a standard item that every reptile owner should have. It is especially important for monitoring sick animals. I weigh sick animals daily.

Regardless of what yourr vet thinks I would start her on oral calcium. Ask your vet for Calcium Glubionate or NeoCalglucon. The dosage is 1 cc per kg per day. So you will need her weight to figure out the dosage then split the dosage and suppliment in the am and pm. In other words if she weighs 250 grams she would need .25 cc a day or .125 cc in the am and .125 in the pm.

Stop feeding the waxworms. You are doing more harm than good. She won't eat the superworms because she wants the waxworms. I never, ever feed waxworms or mealworms under any circumstances even to sick rescues. You would be better to force feed the right food than let her eat the wrong food.

Replace the sprayed calcium with Repcal Calcium w/D3 and dust every live meal in addition to the liquid calcium.

Above is my best advise based on research and personal experience with sick and rescued dragons. I have seen other conditions with the same symptoms but choose to offer suggestions for conditions that could improve first. The dragging of her body is a sign of late stage MBD. Shaking when held is also a very common symptom. An x-ray to check her spine and bone calcification would be very helpful although not always conclusive.

Hey,
We will definitely get her started on a better calcium regimen.
However, I have questions about how you suggest we should force feed her. We used to be able to force those "crickets in a can" into her, but these days she'll just spit them out. We figured that her eating on her own was better than forcing her to eat and then having her either spit it out or throw it up (she only did that once, when we were feeding her some dragon food mixed with water and fed to her via syringe at our vet's recommendation). We also found that she ate much less when we were forcing her to eat than she does now (being able to sneak 2-4 crickets in her mouth as opposed to her gobbling up 15ish wax worms). We have been able to "trick" her into eating some greens by putting wax worms on veggies and such, and wax worms are fed veggies and gut load.
We do not have a scale at home right now, although it is something that I am looking into. She is underweight compared to our other dragon, that I'm sure of. That's also one of the reasons that we originally started feeding her wax worms - to put on some weight. It's also worth being said that we tried to hold her off on wax worms and only offer super worms for about a week, and then got worried that we were just hurting her progress (she's gotten a lot better since being in our care, but we know that she has a ways to go).
Any suggestions are very much appreciated - She was our first dragon and we had no idea what bad condition she was going to be in when we rescued her. We love her to death and only want to make her more comfortable. If she does indeed have advanced MBD, is there a chance that she can bounce back with proper calcium, or will she always have problems?
Thanks so much.
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

I'm really not a force feeding believer. My answer was that you would be better off force feeding something more nutritious than just filling her up with fat. Think of a sick child that would only eat candy. What would you do? You certainly wouldn't allow that. That's the reason why I never feed waxworms, that way they never develop a taste for them.

On 9/1/07 I took in a rescue that cannot walk and drags himself around. He has and had many other problems. He is having surgery for the 3rd time again today. His name is Brutus and I share his care with a semi retired reptile vet since even my portion has exceeded $800 so far. He has a fusing of his vertibrae that make his back stiff and probably restricts his rear leg usage. I expect no improvement in his mobility. I have never force fed him but when the vet has him she force feeds him pinkies. He loses weight when in her care regardless, but gains weight in my care. She has far better medical knowledge but hands down I offer him better husbandry.

I hope the dragon you have is nowhere near the same condition as the one I have. I have been taking rescues and unwanteds for some time now and he is by far the worst I have ever seen.

I would get the calcium today. And continue to try to offer the superworms. Resist the temptation to give her more waxworms. If she came here I would never give her one no matter what. I would have her fecal tested for parasites also. The weight scale would really help you get a grip on how you and she are doing. You'd be surprised how just a little food can help her put on weight. I'd order some Hornworms. All my dragons love them and they are high in calcium.

The answer to you question regarding will she bounce back is I don't know. But if you do the right things these animals more often than not will surprise you. The one I have is an exception and was obviosly sent to me as a humbling experience after many succeses. In your case I would be very optomistic.

Alright... another question. Do you think that we would get anywhere offering her phoenix worms instead of hornworms? I'm having a really difficult time finding hornworms somewhere online that I can order them... if you have an idea of a reputable supplier it would be appreciated. We've been ordering our dragon feeders from the Bug Company, and they don't carry hornworms or phoenix worms. We've also thought about trying orange spotted cockroaches, because there's a guy locally that breeds them... any thoughts on these? We can easily try to give her a pinky, or maybe half... we've got lots of those around.
We had her treated for worms/parasites when we had her at the vet as a preemptive measure right after we got her, so hopefully she's good on all that.
We've had her for around three months right now, and she's really doing leaps and bounds better... we just want to see her continue to improve. Thank you so much for all of your advice, it's really helping us.
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

http://www.greatlakeshornworm.com/
http://mulberryfarms.com/

Two great suplliers with great people. If you choose Mulberry then specifically ask for the tan food rather than the black. Greatlakes only uses the tan food.

I am not a Phoenixworm believer. First of all they are way too small to be worth the bother for a sluggish eater. Plus with 14 dragons they'd drive me to the poor house. lol. Also often they come out looking the same as when they went in so I don't believe the dragons digest them properly. On the good side some dragons really love them so you could give it a try if the Hornworms don't work out. Both Hornworms and Phoenixmorms are very high in Calcium.

Orange spotted are Blaptica Dubia. I have a colony here. The down side is they have a pretty good shell to them. I don't feed them to sick dragons unless they are very good chewers, and even then not full size ones. I have heard that Lobster Roaches are softer but they are climbers and I have never tried them. For my current sick dragon I stick to supers, silks, and Hornworms. He can't walk so he can't chase crickets or roaches anyway.

You should have said you treated for parasites earlier. Antibiotics kill all of the gut flora including the good stuff that stimulates appetite and helps with digestion. You need to give her a probiotic.

I recommend Pet Authority Acidophiliz , it is available here.

http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=227

The vet that shares Brutus with me was extremely reluctant to administer it when I gave it to her. In a few days he ate a whole bowl of salad and she was real curious if it was just a coincidence or not. Either way she asked to keep the bottle. Her reptile collection is nothing short of exceptional including 11 dragons.

The pleasure is mine. Any advise I can give that is taken to heart is my thanks. So many here ask and then dispute the advise.

Alright, so it looks like we'll probably be ordering some hornworms and phoenix worms and try to get her started on those... I think we'll have some real success with the phoenix worms because, at least in the pictures I've seen, they look a lot like wax worms so hopefully she'll be willing to try them. I will also look into that probiotic... I wish our vet would have told us that we should administer that after we got her treated for parasites, but at least we know know. She should be started on some calcium supplements tomorrow, and we will let you know how she's doing from there.
After reading some of the testimonials on the phoenix worm web sites, I have some real hope for her recovery.

Thank you so much, it's people like you that really make this forum invaluable.
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

She had a half of a pinkie tonight. We will be ordering the insects. Just wanted to let you know!
Thanks!
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

That's great great she ate the pinkie. I gave the probiotic to my vet to use and she was extremely skeptical and only tried it at my prompting. I'm lucky to have her. It's great to work with someone where the information goes both ways. The probiotics thing seems to be something that keepers learn about but is not taught in medical school.

Also, I was with her tonight to get my post surgery dragon back. I was speaking about parazap (parazap.com) and how I have never medicated a dragon for parasites.

So... The company we wanted to order hornworms/phoenix worms didn't email us until wednesday to tell us that they weren't going to ship until jan. 7 due to temperatures. So now we're back to square one, waiting for new food to get shipped out this monday from a different company. However, she's been getting calcium supplements and we've been not feeding her the wax worms (veggies instead). I haven't seen much of a change yet but of course only a little part of her diet has changed so far.
I will update you again once we've got her feeding on some new food and hopefully seeing some improvement!

I just wanted to say thanks again for all of the great advice I got on this forum. It's nothing like going to other forums and getting jumped all over for making a mistake that you own up to and are ready to correct. You've all been fantastic, and I'm sure she'll benefit from your knowledge. Thanks!
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors