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Can someone give me the definition of a Jungle Boa?

Sweedish bloodline. OK.

Nice light and clean pale background color.

Somewhat hypo with distinct black borders to tail and dorsal saddles.

Dorsal saddles irregular and random with lighter irregular patterns, voids, and inclusions within.

Reduced pattern overall with sides virtually patternless and clean.

Tail saddles with clean light bright reddish interior, with distinct black borders. Striping frequently occurs.

That's just my best guess for a definition. Please add to it or correct anything I've got wrong.

Is it a codominant trait? Will 50% of a litter be visual Jungle if one parent is Jungle?

How does the Jungle pattern anomoly manifest itself with Hypo, Salmon, Sunglow, and Albino?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Some have interconnected saddles (some have the chainlink pattern), some have striping of the tail, thicker head stripes meaning the top of the head, "floating saddles" looks like they have bubbles in the saddles and of course some have insane color. Supers tend to have that reduced dorsal pattern though not so much on the jungles though. Here's a pic that Phil P. posted a week ago or so with the floating saddles

here's a pic of a female possible jungle I got from Steve Ihrig but she is just a little brighter than the photo but very small

hope it helps
Bob

I think most has been covered on appearance. Genetically it works as dominant/codominant/incomplete dominant traits work in that if you breed a jungle to a normal you get approximately 50% heterozygous jungles and if you breed two of those you can get homozygous (super) jungles. I actually don't know if you'd call it codominance or incomplete dominance in the case of jungles, but genetically speaking the genes are passed to offspring in the same manner.

It's codominant and I know how genetics work but if you're thinking of why I called mine a possible cuz that is what you get when you have to tell the normals from jungles in a litter
Bob

It has to do with the degree of expression, correct?
More obvious later and much more obvious with offspring?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The Jungle gene messes with color and pattern in the ways already described. Of course there are MANY genes that also affect these same colors and patterns. It really depends on the genetic makeup of the "normal" along wit the specific line.

Not all jungles are created equal, they have been crossed with many different lines of normals with varying degrees of expression of the jungle gene.

I have no idea of what the "best" normal to cross looks like, nor do I know the multitude of lines there are out there. I do have two clear high expression jungles from Mark Hauge. They are siblings to the one Bob re-posted from Phil. They are F2's from the Barker line as Mark purchased a pair of sibling jungles from them and bred them to produce a stellar litter of clear supers, jungles and normals. Not one possible in the lot!!

I also have some salmon possible jungles produced by Pete Kahl - Night and day difference between them all!!!

Bo Peep, female jungle from Mark,

Woody, male jungle from Mark,

Amber, super salmon, pos jungle from Pete,

Snickers, Salmon pos jungle from Pete,

Feel free to correct me where I've missed something or plain have it wrong, I'm learning like all of us!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

i just noticed your Bo Peep has the same Planaria (Flat Worm) pattern on the tail

my JJ from the same litter as yours

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Christian

christian@redwoodreptiles.com

I thought so for a good while. After reading Vin's new book and thinking about it I think otherwise.

The general explanation for basic genetics is:

Incomplete Dominance = White Flower (WT) - Pink Flower (het) - Red Flower (homozygous). The heterozygous form being a blending of the traits.

Codominance = White Flower (WT) - Red Flower (heterozygous) - White Flower with Red Spots (homozygous).

I dont have Vin's book on me right now but I recall him mentioning that the "paradox" albino boas we see, if they were dominant, would be considered a codominant trait. This makes sense to me and is parallel to the basic flower example. Motleys, Jungles, etc to me, seem to fall under the incomplete dominance catagory. My understanding of Mendelian genetics is admittedly limited to primarily what I know from researching boa morphs... maybe someone with more in depth qualifications can chime in and clarify (Paul?).

I thought co-dominant meant that it has a clearly distinguishable appearance in both the het and super form much like the motley which is clear day. Jungles to me have a very different appearance in both forms with the supers having very reduced saddles and a very clean look. Now with a salmon jungle x jungle breeding would make it a little harder to distinguish the super jungle salmons from the salmon jungles with the reduced which the salmon trait seems to affect. Not trying to come off wrong btw just looking for the right answer lol
Bob

supposed to be called a co-dominant pattern mutation and in the het form that has "incomplet dominance" in the visual offspring when bred to a norml and since traits are passed genetically........ this sounds right to me now so sorry for the confusion and if I had half your photo skills I would be a B class photographer
Bob

Are you saying there are no visual Jungles first time around, just hets?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

There are high expression jungles and low expression jungles. Some have a lot of visual aspects such as saddle, striping....... and some have the coloring and might have one blocky saddle and the rest of the saddles are normal but carrying the gene making it a low expression jungle. Besides telling normals and jungles apart at birth try doing it to albinos and albino jungles. Try selling someone an albino jungle that you label as a jungle and it doesn't prove out and instead of paying 1k he paid 4-5k. So why risk it so they call it a possible.

A normal x jungle yields
50% jungles
50% normals

jungle x jungle yields
25% supers
50% jungles
25% normals

it is also labeled as codominant due to the fact that you can tell the difference between the het and homo forms, hypo on the other hand is dominant. Don't know where I lost you but I'm trying to help you
Bob

That's what I thought. Let me see if I can ask this without too much confusion.
What is the benefit of breeding a Jungle to a Salmon, to a Hypo, to a Sunglow, if the Jungle gets lost in the mix? In other words, what if all the babies look like Salmons, Hypos, Sunglows in the first go'round?
Are you going to wind up with more combinations and with obvious Jungles (phenotype)in the second generation? Same as you would breeding two double hets of something together?
Jungle is a fine pattern morph in its own right. I just don't see the advantage of throwing that in the mix, if it's practically indistinguishable afterwords.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I personally wouldn't breed past a jungle x salmon unless the jungle was het. My possible is het for albino (lipstick) and so I will be breeding her to my Burke albino male I pick up and then to my holdback sunglow from my double hets from John Martino's double dose lipstick litter he had earlier this year. The benefits of a jungle to a salmon are like the benefits of a salmon to anything it only gets better like the sunglow to the albino, bloody salmon to the muddy appearance of the blood boa and the really cool salmon jungles look like these like Frank Martin has

and of course everybody wants color color color so that what the jungle gene adds and cleans it up too

I do think that the salmon tends to throw aberrancies as opposed to the hypo though. That's is why you prolly see Salmon Abby's and Ginger Salmons instead of Hypo Abby's and Ginger Hypo's. Celia Chen just mated a aztec to a hypo and it kept its pattern in tact with the hypo gene so that is kind of what I am going off of. There is also vast differencies also between hypo motleys and salmon motleys. nice chatting with you John
Bob

A heterozygous jungle is a visual jungle because jungles are a dominant trait. The term "het" applies to both recessive and dominant traits. The difference being, with recessive traits, the animal appears normal.

That is an elegantly beautiful little boa.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I got this jungle from Pete and he says its a jungle. Not your typical looking jungle, but thats cool. He told me all the jungles in that litter had the same look.
I can imagine it will make some nice cross'. The supers from this type of jungle should be differant as well.

Mike

Cool looking jungle and exactly my point up above this post somewhere. A lot of the ultimate look to an individual "jungle", comes from the other genes. IMHO, the Jungle gene modifies what is already there.

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

If the Jungle is a dominant and/or co-dominant trait just like Motleys, Aztecs, Arabesque or Hypos, why have I never seen possible Motleys, Aztecs, Arabesque or Hypos being offered for sale...? Furthermore, why is it that Motleys and Aztecs which have a super form that is distinctly different than their non-super forms considered co-dominant and the Jungle which doesn't have a distinctly different super form considered to be the same. Just curious and hoping someone can help me out. Take care and good luck breeding this season. Andrew

There is a definite difference between a heterozygous jungle and a homozygous jungle! Take a look. This is one bred by Peter Kahl.

With both codominance and incomplete dominance there is a phenotypic difference between the heterozygous and homozygous forms.

I actually have done quite a few years of genetics-based classes and this is all considered "beyond Mendelian genetics." A lot of it escapes me now, but a good genetics book to have as a reference is really great. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation in the boa world about genetics. I think most of the people here though are really quite informed.

safe to say the jungle is a co-dominant mutation? But if you say the jungle "trait" is co-dominant that would lead to both normals and jungles in one litter which is incomplete dominance which contradicts the "trait" part. So it should be referred to as a cod. mutation? thanks for any info on the matter
Bob

That looks a whole lot like that Squaretail that's for sale.
German line. Snake named Omar. See classified ad Adult male Squaretail for sale by Gray, Dec. 4th.
Is there some relationship there? You sure your photo isn't Jungle X Squaretail?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

that does look something like a squaretail but that is the super form to the jungle which looks nothing like a het jungle. here are some more super jungle pics and another tell tale sign are those eyes that are orange which is a sign of a Super Jungle.

Those are really nice. You get 100% Supers with Jungle X Jungle?
I really like that orangish color on the sides of second pic.
All this stuff is new to me. It will just take a while to sink in.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

a jungle x jungle breeding would yield
25% super jungles
50% jungles
25% normals

with J being jungle and j being normal you set it up like this

J- j
J
j

JJ (super)
Jj (jungle)
jJ (jungle)
jj (normal)

hope it helps and here is a link to a real good website that will do all the calculations for you after you fill in the boxes.

Genetics Wizard

I like this topic

Here are 2 of my animals.
The first is a poss jungle male frome a friend of me.
The female he was breeding this year, just had here second ovulation today, so hope he will prove next year.

And now a female I have found on the internet, no genetic information on here.
But she have some of the jungle markers, I hope i can breed here next season. I call here butterfly

Gr Erwin

I claim I am just making a guess and nothing more but what I see on yours is this. First one from your friend looks like a prime canidate to me with the "floating saddles" and also the mini me head stripe you see it???

now look at your other one (don't think so) and you see all brown on top of the head and the color is a little off or is it in shed?

now here are a couple of pics from Ron at Class Reptilia who had a jungle het sharp litter so I copied some pics for the head stripes

clear as day on this one, you see the little grey oval on top of the head surrounded by brown

very pronounced on this one again

now look at this het sharp one and do you see any grey oval or spot or line

kinda faded but I see it or at least I think I see it

het sharp

and another normal het sharp

hope it helps you out and do you think your second one is a lost harlequin cuz I don't think it would be an abby but they do have aberrant normals like the father of my red hypo female and his name is Piccalo

take care
Bob

Thanks Bob

I hope that first one will prove for me.
Here is a still born from last year, the rest of the litters ware slugs

He was born on day 116 post ovulation.

The second, I dont think she is jungle.
But there are some thing about here that look almost jungle.
I dont think she is a harlequin or a abby, the are still not for sale here in Europe
I hope my salmon will breed here next year.
We can only wait and hope for some nice babies.

Gr Erwin

>>There is a definite difference between a heterozygous jungle and a homozygous jungle! Take a look. This is one bred by Peter Kahl.
>>
>>With both codominance and incomplete dominance there is a phenotypic difference between the heterozygous and homozygous forms.

But how much difference? Aren't there various levels of phenotypic expression for hets?

Thanks,
Ed

How come Ive never seen possible Hypos,Motleys,Arabasque or Aztecs but Ive seen quite a few possible Jungles...? How can Jungles be the exact same mutation as those mentioned above when they produce possibles...? Just curious thats why I ask. Andrew

I think in some way you just answered your own question, they are NOT the exact same mutation. If they were, they'd all have the same name and look.

People like to think of genetics as black and white, one gene pair at a time. Problem is there are thousands of gene pairs many of which can have affects on color and/or patterns. The difference with jungles is there can be low expression animals, ones that show less of the markers. Even to the point where you can't be sure if it's a low jungle or a high normal. Even Salmon is a "borderline" morph, almost codominant in that many supers can be picked out of a litter by somone who knows what to look for. BUT, not always so it's classified as dominant. Really it's somewhere between true dominant and codominant.

Some morphs like Motley etc, are like toggle switches, either on or off. Of course Motley is a three position switch, off, on and really on. Jungle is more like a dimmer switch, it can be on really bright or can be so low you can't tell if it's really on or not.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Sounds good but then I thought, does that mean normals could be considerd to be co-dominant...? Andrew

Well, if you lived in bizaro land and all you had were super motleys and you were trying to breed normals, then yeah I guess so!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I like the dimmer switch analogy!