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breeding question(s) I know - more?

rainbowsrus Dec 05, 2007 12:35 PM

Seen and read a lot if great info out there, some conflicting some in agreement. One thing I have not seen in one single spot is a optimal timeline. I know they are all different and will each follow it's own agenda but, if it were a "textbook" perfect breeding, what would be the approximate timeline.

male introduced when ?
Courting for how long before pre-ovulation swell?
time from pre-ovulation swell until ovulation?
time from ovulation to post ovulation shed (POS)?
time from POS to delivering babies?
Did I miss any milestones?

Like I said before, I know they are all different and each will vary from the "norm" in their own way and husbandry can and will affect things.

So, if you were to put a timeline down, what would it look like?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Replies (20)

Odin22 Dec 05, 2007 03:04 PM

Thanks from a newbie for posting this. I'll be interested in the answers too.

Antigone

fgs Dec 05, 2007 03:10 PM

For the answers to Dave's great questions.

Bring on the answers.......

Brian

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

AbsoluteApril Dec 05, 2007 04:09 PM

some of the best info on the web about breeding boas at the link below. Basically spells it out...

I also like the Boa Constrictor Manual (I think it's $9? Cheap and well worth it)

There are some other good books out there, I really enjoyed:
Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas (got on Ebay for a decent price a few years back)

good luck!
-April
boaphile's article about breeding

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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

boaphile Dec 05, 2007 06:18 PM

Conflicting info? Not much conflicting info really from Boa breeders. I don't think there is much disparity regarding the things you asked about. There are writers who write and only research what was previously written. Then there are writers who have actual experience with what they write about. Most of those people like the Barkers, Tremper, and the other great contributors to Herpetoculture, are knowledgeable, articulate and know the basics of grammar and spelling, unlike me. I, on the other hand, have no idea what a participle is let alone what I'd do with one if I found one dangling someplace, assuming I could actually identify it. So I ramble on about what I think even if I don't know that I am wrong. It doesn't seem to stop me from penning my mind. So here goes nothing... or is it something? You decide.

The really frustrating thing is that Boas can't read. In addition to being illiterate, they are deaf and even if they could hear, I doubt they would listen. So they don't all do what we want them to do exactly. Evidence an ovulation I had yesterday from a female that was in the middle of the blue. That is outside the normal scheme of things but do you think she could be considerate of what I have written previously? Not a chance. So I will have to swallow my ample pride and be content when those puppies pop out. I can live with that.

So my (1) possible numbers, then (2) optimal numbers followed by (3) average numbers will follow each of the questions you propose in that order:

Male introduced when ?

1. Males can be introduced any time of year really.
2. September - December
3. October 1st for me if I can get the cage orders to slow down enough to catch my breath.

Courting for how long before pre-ovulation swell?

The Pre-ovulation swell is not always readily identifiable. Assuming it is observed then:

1. 1 - 4 Months
2. Within the first couple weeks
3. Usually 4 - 6 weeks

Time from pre-ovulation swell until ovulation?

1. 1 day to 2 months
2. 1 week
3. 2 weeks

Time from ovulation to post ovulation shed (POS)?

1. 14 - 24 days
2. 18 days
3. 16 - 20 days

Time from POS to delivering babies?

Colombian, Peruvian, Bolivian, Brazilian, Argentine Boas as follows. Pure Central American and Hoggs about a week less.

1. Anything is possible. I have had 92 days, 124 days or no P.O.S. at all
2. 105 days
3. 103 - 110 days

Did I miss any milestones?

The length of time from introduction of the male till the female ovulates?

1. Shortest I have seen is one week
2. Optimal I suppose is one week. I could breed my best males to far more than only one female that way.
3. Average is around 2 months for my boys.

Other "milestones" that really should be addressed:

1. Caging and the design of the heating system is, I believe, the single most important thing in successfully breeding Boas. Shortcuts = reduced success or none of it.
2. Yea, Cooling. Perhaps it is too close to "Colling" huh? LOL I don't do seasonal cooling. I turn off the heat at night but nothing seasonal.
3. The best food: This of course is the food served at Las Margaritas in Hasting Minnesota. I call the food their "Manna".
4. Hair? No hair is not required for Boa Breeding. Perhaps desirable especially by those who lack it, but not required.
5. I could go on but why bother? I have said too much already.

Thank for the opportunity to wax goofy Dave! I can't resist as you know...
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

rainbowsrus Dec 05, 2007 06:51 PM

I was hoping you'd chime in. IMO you're the source, like you yourself stated, not the ivory tower breeder. More of a seats of the pants jump in and fly the sucker breeder. VERY much real world!!

By conflicting info I really meant the "to cool or not to cool" debate.

Those are exactly the types of numbers I was looking for. Yeah, thay can't (or won't?) read and NEVER seem to follow the script but at least having the script gives me and others an idea of what's "supposed" to be happening. I believe from my observations that I have one gravid female so far Candy bred by Reeses, with one about to ovulate (maybe missed the pre-ov and is actually gravid now - watching for signs of shed) and several others "working the system".

I really hope we cross paths some day, I for one would love to buy you a beer (or other drink of choice) Hell, I'd like to buy you dinner, would be worth it for all the help you've been to me and all the fun/smiles we've had online!!! That's a serious offer, log it in the debts owed file!!!

BTW, I know what to do with a "dangling participle" - carefully return it to where it belongs and zip up your fly!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

strictly4fun Dec 05, 2007 07:06 PM

strictly4fun Dec 05, 2007 07:07 PM

Absolutely awesome Jeff and thanks for taking the time away from the glue
Bob

fgs Dec 05, 2007 07:49 PM

Jeff:

Why do you have to mention the hair thing. You know how sensetive I am about that LOL...........

Seriously the herp comunity owes you big time.

Not only for the articles you have written, the laughs you have given us, but for your passion, commitment and attitude. You are mentoring so many of us. You will probably never know what great things you have done for this community.

We owe you much more than we will ever be able to give.

Brian
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

jscrick Dec 05, 2007 08:53 PM

I'm not so sure about the clown part. I'd say more like the Pied Piper of Boadom.

Gotta ask one question - What do your night time lows come out to be, Summer -vs- Winter? Does the night time low seasonally cycle to lower parameters?

Are your snakes in the basement? Is there any naturally occurring fluctuation of the photo-period?
That's 2 questions. Well, maybe 2 and a half. Sorry.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

strictly4fun Dec 05, 2007 09:52 PM

here's your answer in the link

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1436058,1436058

jscrick Dec 05, 2007 11:20 PM

I don't get it. What does that link have to do with clowning? To me that's just pride and humility.
I've been aware of his knowledge and abilities since '96 or '97, at least. All I was trying to say was - He leads and we all follow. He is the great facilitator of all this.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

strictly4fun Dec 06, 2007 02:33 AM

Pride and humility, dude do you drink heavily or are you on your meds or not. If you want to correct someone correct one of your kids dude not me.

your question in red

Posted by: jscrick at Wed Dec 5 20:53:27 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I'm not so sure about the clown part. I'd say more like the Pied Piper of Boadom.

Gotta ask one question - What do your night time lows come out to be, Summer -vs- Winter? Does the night time low seasonally cycle to lower parameters?

Are your snakes in the basement? Is there any naturally occurring fluctuation of the photo-period?
That's 2 questions. Well, maybe 2 and a half. Sorry.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

my post after you click on it after I copied and pasted it for you and the answer is in red

So yesterday November 27th I wake up and find it is cold out. I mean, it is 5 degrees here in the Northland! 5 degrees! Now that's cold! So how can you breed Boas in a place that is 5 degrees you ask? Well, we have a furnace. The thermostat that runs that furnace is set at 77 degrees and the Boa room stays at that temp all the time. Day and night 77 degrees. That's correct, I still do not cool my Boas. I do turn off the heat in the cages at night but I do that all year around. So a night time drop, but the room stays the same all the time.

I tried to help you but you flipped out somewhere so the answer is 77 if you are still reading
Bob

jscrick Dec 06, 2007 05:16 AM

Sorry. Wasn't trying to "correct" you. Probably be my grandkids I'd be correcting , not my kids. Just a difference in opinion. I didn't see anything clownish about that post. Sorry again.
I have done my share of drinking. Probably just trying to be civil while sober now.
Have got to admit, I don't recall everything I've read word for word. Maybe its from all those years of drinking. I'm still thinking there may be a degree or two of temperature variance, regardless.
Thanks for setting me straight, Bob.
And thanks for the genetics input on the Jungle thread. Very helpful.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

boaphile Dec 06, 2007 01:52 PM

Clowning around and spraying...

The clown comment was I guess to show that I don't take myself all that seriously. Boas are great fun and I enjoy putting all the info I have been fortunate to learn out there.

The place where the animals are is on ground level. There is plenty of light from outdoors. The natural outdoor light cycle is all my animals get. I never turn on lights after dark. The room temp is set at 78 degrees but does vary a bit in the summer time. Sometimes a little warmer, sometimes a little cooler but the cages are controlled by thermostats. I am not aware of any specific season change other than the light cycle and the reduction in the humidity here in Minnesota.

I agree with what Craig Kade said about spraying. Iwould never spray directly on the gravid females. The evaporative effect on the sprayed females would cool them unnecessarily. I'd avoid that. If absolutely necessary, I'd spray the cage and use a large water bowl that I'd keep filled with fresh water. If you had a really nice plastic cage, with the ideal airflow, and a large water bowl, you wouldn't need to spray. I know where you could get a nice cage like that too...
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

rainbowsrus Dec 06, 2007 03:52 PM

And YEAH, I know where you could get a nice cage like that too...

Got several of them myself, they work GREAT. Except for the pesky remote activated door latch!!


-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

jscrick Dec 06, 2007 06:57 PM

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Odin22 Dec 06, 2007 09:51 PM

Jeff, Thank you

I'll back off. I was concerned because they are in glass tanks with screen tops and the room is typically as low (when the heat in the apartment kicks in) as under 20%...sometimes as low as 10%. I haven't noticed our females drinking, and their water bowls are no where near big enough for them to soak--dog-size doesn't cut it for gravid females.

We would have loved to order a couple housing units from you. Sadly the revenue from the last round of babies was used in vet bills. If we keep/get any more snakes after this next round, we might be talking with you yet

Antigone

Odin22 Dec 05, 2007 08:56 PM

Jeff:

Thank you--for all the info seriously, and not so seriously imparted. At least I can get off the edge of my seat...my two girls will likely (unless THEY say so) have their babies until Jan 13 and Jan 30 ish.

A couple questions if I may:
If I've been disturbing them twice daily to spray them down because our apartment humidity is non-existant...and by disturbing, I mean pulling out a drawer one is hiding in, spraying, and pushing the drawer closed again...will that prolong the pregnancy because she won't feel safe? If not disturbing her means that her humidity may suffer, which choice is better?

Thank you again,
Antigone

Craig K. Dec 06, 2007 01:41 AM

I am no Jeff Ronne, but I would not worry about spraying the female after she ovulates, spray the cage if humidity is to low but leave her alone, it probably won't hurt but why take the chance. Craig

Odin22 Dec 06, 2007 12:56 PM

Thank you

A

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