Reptile & Amphibian Forums

when you cross a phenotypic normal male (possibly a bit hypermelanistic) with a phenotypic salmon female (is it hypo if she still has black?) ??

Both are rescues, as is our other adult female-- who is a phenotypic normal. The babies from Her clutch were all pretty normal looking...no one with Daddy's darkness. There was one I wish we could have kept as she was a bit light actually with larger spacing between the saddles.

Any chance at all that we'll get some salmon in our babies, or is that purely recessive and therefore would only be in the next generation?

Antigone

Do you have any pictures of your boas?

Well, ignoring the remote possibility of other recessive genes, Salmon(hypo) is a dominant morph. Yeah there is some black still there, typically around the tail blotches on a het salmon. Assuming it is salmon and that it's het for salmon - you said it still had some black, more typical on a het salmon than a homozygous one. Then 1/2 the babies would be phenotypic salmons (het) and 1/2 would be phenotypic normal.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

This is Freya (female)

This is her tail.

Freya's Profile

Midnight (male)

Midnight's Tail

Midnight's Head

I guess that I should also be asking: is she really a salmon? And
what would Midnight be? He wasn't an aney, but also not as 'completely' black as some hypermelanistic pix I've seen.

Any change in the guesses having seen the cross?

Antigone

Midnight looks like a normal to me. From the pictures, it does appear that the female is a hypomelanistic boa. As was said, hypomelanism is dominant over the wild-type/normal gene so a regular (heterozygous) hypo would yield 50% hypos when bred to a normal and a homozygous (super) hypo would yield all regular hypos when bred to a normal.

Thanks for the reply

Is there a sex-linkage too? I'm concerned that temps may not be/have been ideal, and that there may be slugs. According to that 11/96 boaphile article (that was a good read ) males seemed more prone to die if there were husbandry issues during development. Is there a chance that any het-hypos we might have would all die/ be slugs leaving a clutch of normals?

REALLY hoping for a healthy bunch of babies now...,
Antigone

I personally don't know of any sex linkage, but perhaps some of the other breeders can chime in here. I do know that male sperm is greatly affected by temperature. Think of all the studies being done on laptop use and the effect the extra heat has on human male sperm. If kept at either extreme, boa sperm dies too.

As for could all the hypos be slugs and you get a litter of normals, surely that COULD happen. In a perfect world those percentages would be right. If you are proving out a boa and only get 8 babies and not any are the morph you are proving, you probably don't want to come to any conclusions with that few offspring. In a litter of 30 or more babies, you would probably see those percentages more accurately reflected.

They're both nice boas. The female does have a reduction in black, but she doesn't look like a Hypo to me. She looks like she could be a Pastel or just a clean colorful normal.

but a very colorful normal that is very very nice. The other one could be a low grade anery and the market for het anery's is about as much as a normal so you may want to find another partner like a real nice pastel or salmon.
Bob

I would say Freya has some Suriname in her. The shape and size of the head makes me think so, along with that strawberry background color. Seems like she'd have to have Pastel or Hypo for the other component, that to lighten that Suriname even further, which is what appears to be her case, to me at least.
This is just my best guess. Just one more unqualified opinion. I realize I'm slow and thick. Not nearly so knowledgeable, experienced, well read, resourceful, quick and witty as others here.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hi

Where's a good place on this site/forum, or what's the best way to search for more details about the trait definitions of all the names thrown around here? For example, I thought Surinames just had REALLY amazing tails--which sadly Freya does not (at least not like the ones I've seen pix of here), but you talked about head shape and background. What makes a Pastel? etc etc. Is there a good FAQ somewhere? I've seen a LOT of pretty babies in this forum, but I have NO idea where some of the color names come from.

Thank you for your time.
Antigone

Pastel is an overall reduction in melanin (dark pigment black or brown). I tend to look at the color of the saddles, if they are dark brown prolly not a pastel (good one at least) but if they are light brown and on the side medallions should be no black on the real nice ones. Since there is less dark pigment present this allows for the subtle colors to show through. Here are a couple of pics of Joe Rollo's pastels

very beautiful pastel and good color

black pigment in the side medallions and dark brown dorsal colored saddles makes this one a normal with spectacular color

again look how clean this one is, immaculate and I love to have this one. Side medallions are very light and compare this one to the first pic, night and day difference

hope it helps you and you might try this site
gilbertboas.com

Bob

this is a hypo pastel dream boa - his pastel trait is considered to be co-dominant by the breeder Matuszak.

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Donna DeYoung
River Mist Reptiles

0.4 Andalusian breeding horses
1.0 Peruvian Paso endurance horse
0.1 Clydesdale/Paint dressage horse
2.0 Cockatiels
1.0 Chihuahua-German Shepherd mix
1.0 Hypo Dream Pastel BCI
0.1 Hypo Het Albino (doublehet sunglow) BCI
1.0 Sunglow BCI
0.1 Albino Arabesque BCI

I don't have a hypo but I got a few salmons

and one more of her

and a female salmon het lipstick from John Martino (pics a little dark but I got a cheap camera and in the sunset the colors are not washed out by the sun excuseslol)

and a male salmon who looks better than the female but I haven't really taking any pics of him but here is the breeder's pic after first shed also carrying the lipstick gene

what do you plan on putting with your hypo?
Bob

Hi

Ok, I continue to be confused--what's the difference between salmon and hypo (not super-hypo)? I thought the picts you posted were hypos, due to lacking the black/having white around the medallions again. And (being more soft-butch then femme) what's lipstick?

Honestly, we're not trying to breed them--they just bred themselves. No cycling, no temp drop, no clue.... I think they were trying to test our beginners luck last time--we had 21 healthy babies, no slugs...so I'm hoping that happens again. We no longer have our male. Q: Can females retain sperm to have a second litter after having a litter? (ie, is there a chance that after this next batch, our dead male could still father more?)?

Thank you again for your time and input,
Antigone

A salmon IS a hypo, a hypo is NOT a salmon. All the salmons, orange tail hypos (Jeff Gee), orangasm hypos (Frank Martin), are just lines. John and Rich Ihle produced the 'salmon' line, but they are all hypomelanistic boas.

Surinames are a locality obviously from Suriname. Same is true of Guyanans, Brazilians, Peruvians, etc. Those are all true red tails and have the large RED tails, typically larger more elongated heads, and peaking to the saddles. That's very general as every locality has its differences. Check out Gus Renfro's site for more information.
www.riobravoreptiles.com

Ahhh yes, Rio Bravo....THAT was the site I was trying to remember. THOSE are some beautiful tails. I drool every time he posts one

Thank you for the hypo/salmon clarification.

Antigone

If your looking for a suri I would look up Barry Miller and also Johnathan Brady who has Rose and if you haven't seen her then check out the pink

and one from Kitchi

Bci always trumps Bcc, in my opinion. In other words, there are tons of captive bred and born Boa constrictor imperitor out there with Boa constrictor constrictor in them. It's just not well defined.

However, if it looks like a Boa constrictor constrictor (phenotype) then chances are it's pure Bcc.

If it looks like a Bci it may be pure Bci or it may not be pure Bci.

When the two are mixed Bci is the dominant phenotype.
That's just my opinion.

As far as your boa being Hypo, Salmon, Pastel. I'd bet it's not Salmon or any other morph that is based on Central American (Panama and others)genetics, because boas from those lines exhibit grayish color characteristics on their anterior/sides. Those are also dominant phenotipic traits that always exhibit themselves when genetically present.

Your snake does not exhibit the Central American Bci trait (gray head or gray anterior/sides), therefore I don't believe it has any Central American blood in it.

It would therefore NOT be a Salmon or Orange-tail Hypo, in part or in whole. It would be a Pastel [Colombian] Bci, or something along those lines in my opinion.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You will also notice your boa exhibits a similar hourglass dorsal saddle pattern as Snakehorse's post of the Hypo Pastel.

Pure Suriname saddles are generally the inverse in form, expressing a foreword and backward expansion from the centers.

Your snake exhibits characteristics of both, but neither in entirety. That's how I arrived at my conclusion of a mix between Hypo/Pastel and Suriname.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hi

I've just spent some time reading up on "the Boa Constrictor Page" as done by some people in Germany. I have a better handle now on the genotypes. I'll agree that what we probably have are BCI Columbian. After that...? Even our more normal-colored crossing (Midnight x Odin) produced some babies with some lateral pinking. I'd like to see how they are turning out, now that they are close to a year old.

Thank you again for your time and the pictures.
Antigone

many people believe that suris and guyanas are the same. in fact many boas that are caught or breed in guyana are exported from suriname. it is a political border that changes all the time, so they are pretty much the same thing. just one fetches a better price for being "known" as a better boa.

Hypo and Salmon is an animal with reduced melanin which is real noticable around the tail blotches.

Here is a normal look at the black borders around the tail blothces closest to the saddles and not poop chute

and here is a hypo notice the black is not around the borders until the very end of the tail

and another beautiful monstertailhypo by Jeff Ronne

the salmon came Rich Ihle at salmonboa.com and the hypo (also called orangetail I think but not 100% sure). The salmons tend have the darker reds like cherry reds and noticably darker pigment on the head like my female but this is her light phase but you can see the speckles

and a yearling 87.5% argentine by Ryan McPhie

a little clearer?

I think it's starting to get there. However, what's the definition of a "monstertail" ?

Antigone

Monstertail is a boa owned by Jeff Ronne. It's pure Colombian according to Jeff. One of Jeff's lines of boas. The ones from that snake. We all love it. Jeff is the most highly regarded boa authority around these parts. Jeff posts information on here daily. Jeff-o-Roony, etc. Just read backward a few days to learn more about Jeff, from his own words.

I forgot Summit Pastel and P.C. Salmon in my last post. P.C. stands for Pink Colombian. Others know more than me on these 2 lines of Pastel. I'd like to hear about them.

I agree, there is little difference between Guyanan and Suriname.
Suriname is known for its strawberry pink. Guyanans are known for a purple tone in the young ones. Patterns vary and the classic colors aren't always present.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"The Complete Boa Constrictor" A Comprehensive Guide to the Care, Breeding, and Geographic Races, Vincent Russo, ECO Herpetological Publishing, 2007.

"Designer Morphs", The Complete Guide to Medium Sized Python and Boa Morphs, John Berry, don't know publisher, Published in 2006 or 2007.

These two are the most recent and most comprehensive.
"Designer Morphs" covers much more territory, therefore is much more limited in coverage, the topic you're interested in.

I've got to say, I'm seeing some "Salmons" without the tell-tale Central American anterior gray characteristic, so think I better retract the "always" statement, or use the qualifier "usually" in that case.

Granted, others know much more than I do on morphs, bloodlines, origins.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>Hi
>>
>>Ok, I continue to be confused--what's the difference between salmon and hypo (not super-hypo)? I thought the picts you posted were hypos, due to lacking the black/having white around the medallions again. And (being more soft-butch then femme) what's lipstick?
>>

A hypo ONLY reduces melanin (browns and blacks. This reduction may allow for color to show through more, but IMO doesn't add color.

A Salmon reduces blacks/browns (making them Hypo), BUT, also adds red color, AND tweaks the saddles patterns, causing in many, some aberrancy to the patterns. Partial stripes for example.

Like Bob said....I don't have any Hypos, but I got a pretty decent Salmon. IMO there is a definite difference.

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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

.

Hi

I envy you your horse collection! But that's for a different forum
Thank you for the great snake pic.

Antigone