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The reason I added the question marks is that I am still not 100% sure this is a definite hypoerythristic albino sinaloan or not. I have questioned for sometime whether in fact it is, which would certainly make it the first one ever produced. I produced this animal 2 years ago from a double het (hypoerythristic X albino) breeding. Out of that particular group came visible hypos and albinos, possible double hets and this little guy who I at first thought that it was just a lighter colored albino. Over the last year, it has put on quite a bit of size and I am still amazed at how much lighter it becomes with each shed. The bands are much more orange than red, looking somewhat similar to some of the hypoerythristics I have in the collection.
Last year, I produced a similar looking baby that I was definite about being a hypo-albino but unfortunately lost the runt during the winter.
I hope to test breed this male pictured below to 2 nice looking double het females this next season. Only time will tell.
Nathan

Here is another image, a close up. Regardless, I think it is a beautiful snake but what do you guys make of it??
Nathan

Well,...it really depends on where does slightly lighter red end, and hypoerythrism start?,...as we both know that the amel trait would simply leave any OTHER remaining shades of pigment in the chromatophores(ie reds/oranges, yellows).

Although maybe SOMEWHAT lighter, if the animal WASN'T an amel., and was just a normal phenotype, would the melanin possibly just darken the orange/red pigment exhibited and then look totally normal?,..who knows!...it's especially hard to see anything out of the norm since there isn't some other animals in the same shot to compare to. I have seen some other animals some considered to be hypo-E, but really to me were nothing more than just a slightly different red/orange coloration, and not really a great REDUCTION in erythrophore pigmentation. Of course I'm not saying the animal IS NOT, I'm simply saying animals should have a VERY noticeable reduction in my opinion to fit the hypo-E term. It might be one of those "hair-splitting" deals.

Can you post some pics of the parent stock, and other hypoerythristic animals you may have to get a better idea of opinions?.....just from the single pic, it's sort of a stretch to see much hypo-E involved, but maybe other specimens together in a pic could help clarify a little more.

I also think that's a hell of a nice looking animal too, that certainly cannot be denied,....you have some great lookin'stuff Nathan!....you post some reall "screamers"!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for the reply and the compliment Doug. I agree, may be hard for some who are not familiar with the look of hypoerythristics to answer but when compared side by side with hypos and albinos, there is certainly a noticable difference. As most people know, I acquired Pete Cragg's entire collection of albinos, hypoerythristic and double het sinaloans nearly five years ago and have been working with this subspecies for over ten years now. I have several other photos of these animals (double het parents and others) that I can post for you to give a better idea of what I am working with. Unfortunately, I am out the door for a Christmas Party but can post a few examples of comparison when I get a little free time. I just figured I would throw this animal out there for all you guys to see. Thanks again.
Nathan

Yeah,...Nathan, no question the so-called "normal" one pictured is a hypoerythristic animal. but still don't quite know about the albino one for sure without some other animals for comparison in the same photo(i.e. same lighting), as we both know that different lighting can give VERY contrasting results, even on the exact same animal. It could very well be one, just hard for the eye to see it in the given conditions. It does seem pretty light and pale.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hey Doug,
Yes, that is indeed a hypoerythristic female I hatched out about 5 years ago. I certainly agree with you about different lighting giving contrasting results and I hope that by providing a shot of the possible hypo albino next to a hypoerythristic and albino that it will show how different looking this snake really is.
I also know that without actually having the animal in question in hand to see, that it can be difficult to provide an exact look through only a few photos. It is a pale and light colored snake, that is obvious. But I wonder if this little guy will continue to lighten up with age just as all of my pure hypoerythristics have done.
Nathan

>>Hey Doug,
>>Yes, that is indeed a hypoerythristic female I hatched out about 5 years ago. I certainly agree with you about different lighting giving contrasting results and I hope that by providing a shot of the possible hypo albino next to a hypoerythristic and albino that it will show how different looking this snake really is.
>>I also know that without actually having the animal in question in hand to see, that it can be difficult to provide an exact look through only a few photos. It is a pale and light colored snake, that is obvious. But I wonder if this little guy will continue to lighten up with age just as all of my pure hypoerythristics have done.
>>Nathan

Yeah Nathan,.....the future of this issue should prove to be very interesting, and rewarding!.....I can easily picture you scratching you're head over this the past two years!..LOL

and yes, hopefully this snake will continue to lighten with age.

it would be VERY interesting if you could just wave a "magic wand" over it and replace the melanin content back in this animal to see just how it would compare with your known hypoE animal you previously posted. That could sure tell us something, huh!?..LOL
I'll bet you've been trying to picture this in your mind for a
while now!...correct!?..LOL I know I would be!

later Nathan!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for all your input, comments, and suggestions over this my friend. Look out soon for a few more pictures.
Have a great weekend.
Nathan

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Nathan,

that snake is killer! It definately looks lighter to me than a normal albino in that photo, but it is hard to tell without a comparison. Don't the hypo-E's get lighter with age? Maybe this one will continue to get ligher. You'll have to prove it out when its big enough to breed. Is it close to breeding age?

Looking forward to more pics.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

Thanks Dave! To answer your question, yes, all of the hypoerythristics I have held back and raised up have all undergone a significant color change. As babies they are extremely dull but after a year or so they become different shades of orange and sometimes light pink. This particular snake in question is undergoing the same type of change. I hope to breed it out when the time comes.
Sorry I missed you this past Sunday. I ended up being busy with the family going to cut down a Christmas tree and then running off to see No Country For Old Men with my brothers. Man, you need to check that flick out...of course, only if you like violent, shoot'em up, crazy drug lord, western type films. I wouldn't suggest bringing your wife though...LOL.
I'll call you tomorrow.
Thanks again for the compliment buddy.
Nathan

Wow Nathan that is a real beauty. I have been wondering when we'd see some pics

The "red" bands definately look different to me, not as harsh of a red as on regular albinos, almost like the orange on really good bicolor albino hondurans. Can you take a pic of him with an albino? The carpet python people have a good trick which is to put them into a white bucket or some such thing. Makes taking the pics easier.

But compare to this pic you sent me a while ago...

and here is the male

I am on the side of it probably is the hypoE albino.

If you have an extra female hypoE sin you should definately mate him to her. If he is a hypoEalbino then you should get all hypoE hatchlings (which would be def. het for albino, which I would want a trio of ofcourse!).
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

yes, those two photos do look very different, but you really must take into consideration the lighting, or lack of lighting used in them. Even the two similar looking albinos in the top photo will look worlds apart when different lighting is used on each of them. I've taken MANY photos of snakes,.... and flash, florescent, incandescent, natural light, ALL give the SAME animal a TOTALLY different look. I get pissed alot when I take pics of tangerine snakes, that tend to come out red, and vice-versa!....light perception, and the way the eye and camera see it can be two totally different things. Getting "true" colors in photos can be a real hassle sometimes.

The top photo with the two albinos side by side is darker, and more underexposed giving the reds a much deeper affect, whereas the lighting in the bottom albino photo has a more bluish hue that can drastically change the way the eye perceives color when they are shown together for comparisons. So it's really dificult to use those two pics for a comparison.

One thing looks very certain, and that is that the otherwise normal phenotype snake Nathan posted is INDEED a Hypoerythristic snake. Also, there can, and will be varying degrees of hypoerythrism exhibited in individuals, as well as different hypo "looks" from other species/subspecies already known in the market.(e.g.hypo-E pyros, gentilis, etc...) so it's not at all a black or white situation. Heck, Nathan stated that he has been pondering the validity himself of being 100% sure, and they are HIS animals!, so that in itself says it is somewhat of a tough call.......see what I mean?....Nathan DOES INDEED have the makings for producing hypo-E/albino nelsoni, but it is just very hard to tell if the one he posted the pic of is indeed one, and to what degree.

In any case, that's my view on it.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Clearly all of that is true, notice I said that I was comming down on the side that it probably was, not definately is.

Thats why I suggested a side by side and a test breeding that would confirm the genetics.

Either way though, that is a killer albino Nathan posted.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Vinny,....

All the points you made were right on, and I agree 100%. I was basically trying to clarify to others reading the thread on this, so they didn't automatically assume since they saw a such a difference in those two pics you posted, then it absolutely HAD to be. ......I think you can see how that could easily happen.

One thing that IS certain, it's a real "looker"!!!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

and I really appreciate your nice compliments. I strongly feel, like the both of you, that the representation of these animals can vary considerably due to the several different lighting situations when taking pictures. The top photo that Vinny provided of the two albinos is darker and was taken indoors with using a flash. The picture of the possible hypoerythristic albino was taken outdoor yesterday on the back patio. I agree also that using the two photos for comparison is difficult although it is obvious that the snake in question is much lighter than most all albino sinaloans and nelson's I have seen first hand.
Like I did mention earlier, even though this is my animal that I see on a daily basis I am still in question and not at this time 100% positive. One of the facts that I do not hesitate to question is that it definitely has gotten lighter with age, a characteristic seen in the hypoerythristics. Another reason is, as you stated Doug, with what I have in the collection, I do have the means to produce one of these animals. Although, there may still always be that possibility that this snake is just a super light pale looking animal.
Thanks again for the feedback. I will try to come up with those comparison shots this weekend when I get some free time.
Nathan

Good deal Nathan!,.....I think everyone here so far is on the "exact same page" on this thing,.......the real key thing here with this is,...........exactly where does one draw the line, and call it one or the other with absolute certainty?

One thing I certainly respect about you Nathan, is the fact that unlike many others in the hobby, you're taking this thing slow, and easy, and NOT immediately making unfounded claims.Nor are you quick to put on "boxing gloves" as so many do defending things that aren't absolutely certain. That's a good quality in my book!

Look forward to seeing more pics buddy!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

for your input and for providing that photo I had sent you a while back. Although, it is obvious to see how light this animal is just by the photos I provided above, I know that I will give people a better idea of just how different this snake is by a comparison shot. I am off for the next three days so hopefully I can get a few more pictures taken by then.
Unfortunately, I don't have anymore that resemble this male at the moment. I have a young hypoerythristic (possible het albino) and of course, the double het females I plan to set him up with.
You never know man, you might just get one yourself out of the snakes you got from me..
Thanks again.
Nathan

ou never know man, you might just get one yourself out of the snakes you got from me..
LOL! I am certainly hoping so, they should go this spring

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Nathan, definitely looks like the red is lighter in color even without a comparison. Sweet snake !!!! Joe

enjoy seeing all of your nice animals as well.
Nathan

Hey Nathan,

I agree with Doug on this...if I could see a side by side with a Hypo-E, this Amel (poss Hybino-E), and a normal...that would help tremendously. But in the end...you just need to test breed it (him?) and prove it out.

Speaking of test breeding, do you have just a Hypo-E or Hypo-E het Amel to breed it to?

Double het breeding, although fun, will not prove this animal out. The best you could say, if you produced a Hypo-E, is that its het Hypo-E, poss. Hybino-E...which still leaves you guessing.

Either way...nice looking snake.

-Rusty

I am hoping to provide the comparison shots later this weekend when I get some free time. Hopefully then some will see just how different this snake really is. Unfortunately, this male is the only one I currently have like this. I also have a young hypoerythristic (possible het albino) female but for now, I will have to plug him into double hets until she is older. Regardless, even if he doesn't breed true to being a hypo albino, he is a possible het hypoerythristic and still a sweet looking snake.
Have a good weekend buddy.
Nathan

great looking animal Nate,
Just breed it to a hypoerythristic and if you get all hypoerythristics you will pretty much know what you have then.

L8r

Thanks for the compliment buddy!
Nathan