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Update. Bloodred still regurging, ,,,,,,

HerpZillA Dec 07, 2007 08:38 PM

I tried a fuzzy mouse on this near 30" snake. She burped it up but it looks like the inners are digested? I have a few customers that get pinky rats over mice as they say their snakes either don't like fur or won't keep them down?

I've heard this with tree snake? but a corn? Although one customer has a king!

1 I ordered nutribac, going to try it.
2 the next show is soon, I WILL have a talk with the guy I bought it from. She's showing a little ridge on her back. Not just the $175 I dropped on her, if I find out the guy knew there was an issue with her,, well, there WILL be another issue!

Thanks for all your input and help so far.

Image
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

Replies (12)

xblackheart Dec 07, 2007 10:34 PM

Not to freak you out Tom, but I heard the ridge back is a sign of crypto (cryptosporidium serpentis). That and the regurge issue. I would keep her as far away as you can from other snakes, wash and disinfect your hands after touching anything she came in contact with, including after you handle her.

Have you tried the basic dewormers, intestinal meds?
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once"

HerpZillA Dec 07, 2007 10:51 PM

Flagyl on her last feeding.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

HerpZillA Dec 07, 2007 11:02 PM

I've seen ridges on a lots of thin snakes. And since she has not really had a full meal in a few months, and was light to begin with, I think just thin. But I may call Victoria Wendt this week.

I personally don't like most vets. Most have no training in herps and just take them in to make money. Victoria's dad was a vet for the Cleveland Zoo, and when I've talked to her, she give you a very honest answer. Like fecal smears, she says many things you are trying to look for are not visable in a standard microscope. Her honestly means a lot, plus I know she personally keeps herps.

I've just never had such a troublesome snake. Unless some type with knwon issues and usually WC.

All my stuff has been and is all in one wire rack. Not much of an option. Been there for months. I will take extra precausions now with cage handling etc.

Thanks. I'm not sure what happened on first post? It seemed to post on its own lol
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

byron.d Dec 07, 2007 11:13 PM

mid body swelling and constant regurging are both symptoms of Crypto. You didnt mention swelling so dont that in your head just yet...
The ridge you mention 'sounds' like it might be a kinked spine.

You snake may just have an infection that needs treatment and a few weeks without feeding.

for whatever its worth.

byron.d

HerpZillA Dec 07, 2007 11:45 PM

No swelling that I have seen. She's thinnner than snakes I have kept. Or keep as I feed well.

I've seen kinks, a lot of them. Not a kink, but if you seen a thin snake and saw the ridge. I don;t see it all the time, but she moved around when I checked on her, and saw it for a second.

I never even heard of crypo, and was just reading on it. Needless to say, it's in my mind and now more than ever I'll prolly take her into the vet I mentioned.

If crypto I'm screwed.

So is the guy that sold it. Big time.

Hopefully something else, I'd like to move her, but not sure where.

Real odd thing is my stomach has bee really off for the last 2 weeks. But that happens from time to time from my back meds. Still makes one think. Then there are my birds. I won;t even talk about anything if something effects them. Oh yea my family too! lol
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

HerpZillA Dec 08, 2007 12:35 AM

OK, here a pic I just took. Then washed my hands lol. Funny, she doe snto seem interestig in food now? First ime ever. The last fuzzy had some flagyl on it. Probably give some more this weekend.

Image
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

DMong Dec 08, 2007 12:54 PM

You really need to STOP TRYING TO FEED IT!!!!!

This is what you need to do(word for word) if you want to save the snake. I would bet money this will work!

By the way, ALL of what Don stated is absolutely correct!, And I couldn't have written that any better if my life depended on it!, but take this simple direct approach, and chances are the snake will make a smooth recovery.

*NO FOOD(this means NONE)

*Administer Flagyl(Metronidazole) at a dose of 50mg/per kg body weight.(very well tollerated by snakes) by mixing it with just a few drops of water(approx 1/4cc)in a small shot-glass.It comes in pill form and paste.I've only used the pill form, but in any case it will be a VERY small chip of the usual 250mg. pill, crush this into fine powder, it does NOT mix well, no matter how long you mix it, so just give it one last quick stir in the shot glass before you draw it up in a small syringe(with thin tubing attachment). Hold the snake gently, but firmly behind the head, gently pry open mouth, and slowly squeeze it down into the snakes throat, avoiding the wind-pipe(glottis)at the bottom of mouth. Keep the snake in an upright position for a little bit so the medication will flow into the stomach were it is needed.

*DO NOT feed snake!!!....in about 10 or so days, give it a VERY small meal(pinky head)

*Repeat another dose of Flagyl after a week or so has gone by after feeding pinky head.

*Wait another week or so before giving it another VERY SMALL meal. After several VERY small meals, in conjunction with the medication, the odds of your snake recovering are very good. But this continued feeding/regurging thing will surely take it's toll and kill it in fairly short order as we all mentioned.

Remember, the cause has to be taken care of first!....I strongly suspect microbial pathogens at work here, and things need to be taken care of in the proper order. Food is NOT the first priority here.

Hope the snake makes a great recovery Tom!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

HerpZillA Dec 08, 2007 08:01 PM

All my meals to her were at least 10 days to over 2 weeks apart.
And each time something smaller. Temps also up over normal. I've had regurge snakes before. Just not one this persistant.
NO mid stomach bulge. Always had a great willingness to eat. In fact it was always bouncing on what ever I put in. This time, I had a 1 day old pinky. She showed little interest.
Last feeding had flagyl on it, and I just gave a dose this morning.

I know regurging is hard on a snake. But I also have no idea when it ate last. I guess I was hoping for a recovery by now.
She may be off to to the vets this week. Not sure what they will soak me, but I'm hoping to get a shop discount too.
I doubt crypto, but if so I'm screwed.

I took for granted it was fine. Handled it and prolly everything else I have.

Time will tell.

>>You really need to STOP TRYING TO FEED IT!!!!!
>>
>>This is what you need to do(word for word) if you want to save the snake. I would bet money this will work!
>>
>>By the way, ALL of what Don stated is absolutely correct!, And I couldn't have written that any better if my life depended on it!, but take this simple direct approach, and chances are the snake will make a smooth recovery.
>>
>>*NO FOOD(this means NONE)
>>
>>*Administer Flagyl(Metronidazole) at a dose of 50mg/per kg body weight.(very well tollerated by snakes) by mixing it with just a few drops of water(approx 1/4cc)in a small shot-glass.It comes in pill form and paste.I've only used the pill form, but in any case it will be a VERY small chip of the usual 250mg. pill, crush this into fine powder, it does NOT mix well, no matter how long you mix it, so just give it one last quick stir in the shot glass before you draw it up in a small syringe(with thin tubing attachment). Hold the snake gently, but firmly behind the head, gently pry open mouth, and slowly squeeze it down into the snakes throat, avoiding the wind-pipe(glottis)at the bottom of mouth. Keep the snake in an upright position for a little bit so the medication will flow into the stomach were it is needed.
>>
>>*DO NOT feed snake!!!....in about 10 or so days, give it a VERY small meal(pinky head)
>>
>>*Repeat another dose of Flagyl after a week or so has gone by after feeding pinky head.
>>
>>*Wait another week or so before giving it another VERY SMALL meal. After several VERY small meals, in conjunction with the medication, the odds of your snake recovering are very good. But this continued feeding/regurging thing will surely take it's toll and kill it in fairly short order as we all mentioned.
>>
>>Remember, the cause has to be taken care of first!....I strongly suspect microbial pathogens at work here, and things need to be taken care of in the proper order. Food is NOT the first priority here.
>>
>> Hope the snake makes a great recovery Tom!
>>
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

DMong Dec 08, 2007 11:27 PM

I posted that because I have also had some snakes regurge, and I've had uncoutable hundreds(maybe thousands) of snakes in my 40 years of being in the hobby(1967) I don't think it's Crypto either as I stated before, but rather microbial pathogens such as Entamoeba Invadens, etc...in the stomach.

About a year and a half ago, I had a yearling Honduran that would NOT hold down ANY meal, NO MATTER HOW SMALL!!!!!!!!!!
This happened 3 to 4 times!.....long story short, I gave it a good dose of Flagyl(by itself, not on a meal) mixed with a little water like I stated earlier,..........PROBLEM GONE!!!!!
eats like a champ, and has held EVERY meal down since that day forward.........see where I'm goin' with this?

I'm suggesting this, because it will VERY LIKELY work!.......or,
you could just continue trying to feed it until it dies, that's up to you.

Good luck!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

HerpZillA Dec 09, 2007 10:15 AM

1st dose of flagyl was given. (not the one on the meal)

So many variations of how often. Our vet gives it to her beardies once a day for 5 days if she suspects (something I forget) that would be throwing them off feed. Since I do not plan on feeding her again for a month this time, I'm going to do about every 5 days. Flagyl is pretty safe.
I deeply appreciate all the input from everyone.

Reminds me I need to get to mexico to get good flagyl. lol

>>I posted that because I have also had some snakes regurge, and I've had uncoutable hundreds(maybe thousands) of snakes in my 40 years of being in the hobby(1967) I don't think it's Crypto either as I stated before, but rather microbial pathogens such as Entamoeba Invadens, etc...in the stomach.
>>
>> About a year and a half ago, I had a yearling Honduran that would NOT hold down ANY meal, NO MATTER HOW SMALL!!!!!!!!!!
>>This happened 3 to 4 times!.....long story short, I gave it a good dose of Flagyl(by itself, not on a meal) mixed with a little water like I stated earlier,..........PROBLEM GONE!!!!!
>>eats like a champ, and has held EVERY meal down since that day forward.........see where I'm goin' with this?
>>
>> I'm suggesting this, because it will VERY LIKELY work!.......or,
>>you could just continue trying to feed it until it dies, that's up to you.
>>
>>
>> Good luck!, ~Doug
>>
>>
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

DonSoderberg Dec 08, 2007 09:58 AM

I hope you and Jeff have been practicing standard procedures for chronic regurgitation syndrome, CRS. You both may actually have little to worry about, regarding pathogens.

I won't cite verbatim, but the Diseases and Disorders chapter of most corn snake books spell out procedures for dealing with this malady. First and foremost is the need to understand what happened after the very first regurgitation. Virtually all stomach acids were expelled. Hence, there are insufficient acid stores to digest the next meal. If your snake was eating pinkies, I recommend the next three meals to be the size equivalent of a pinky head. Most people don't have the resources or experience to substitute for a pinky head, so the head will suffice. Feeding the pinky head is better than nothing and is the correct amount to feed, but given the lack of striated muscle in the head, the hind section of the pinky would be more beneficial AND more easily digested. It's just so messy. Yuckk! Having said that, the head is better than nothing and small meals are essential to restoring stomach fluids. Basically, after one or more regurgitations, your snake is incapable of digesting more than this and may not even be able to digest this much. If your snake was eating fuzzy mice, it should get a one-day old mouse pink. If it was eating adult mice, you should feed one large mouse pink or small fuzzy.

After three such feedings, six to seven days apart, move up to the next logical size. If your hatchling was getting three pinky heads in the first round, now you feed the three headless torsos of those pinks, three times, six to seven days apart. If digested completely, you can progressively work up to the size you are supposed to be feeding. Note I did not say you can move up to feeding what you WERE feeding. If temperature was not the reason for the regurgitation, often it was from feeding oversized meals in the first place.

Don't try any of this until you're certain proper digesting conditions exist in the cage. I recommend a hide every few inches in the cage when you have this problem. They will only utilize the ideal digesting temperatures if they are in complete darkness and privacy. Avoid any action that would increase stress. By offering a hide every few inches, you're giving it more options to facilitate digestion; from hot to warm to cool to cold, moving from end to end of the cage to the other. Some of my customers split PVC pipe down the middle and set both halves in the middle of the cage longitudinally. This allows the snake to move from warm to cool; in the same hide. If you use something like this, block out as much light as possible on the ends. They must not experience the stress of movement outside the cage during this important rehabilitation period.

Recap:
After a puke, you wait seven days. Then, you feed a meal 1/4 the size of what they should be getting; three times/seven days apart. After that 3-feed cycle, repeat with a meal 2/3 the size of what they should be eating; three times/seven days apart. Then, you progress to a normal feeding regimen, once every seven days. After a few weeks, you may resume your routine feeding schedule IF cage conditions are safe.

In conclusion, Tom and Jeff; you probably have no diseases in your snakes. Sometimes we can't identify the stimulus for the first regurgitation, but subsequent ones are foregone conclusions, unless subsequent meals are very small. Insufficient research has been done (so far) regarding the benefits of using Nutribac in corn snakes, but know this. Nitribac is nothing more than living bacteria (if indeed it has not been killed in shipping and storage). Nutribac is not medicine (per-se). It is simply a way to replace bacteria in a stomach that was purged of its natural bacterial flora. Simply treating with Nutribac will do nothing to eliminate potential causes, if indeed the stimulus was a pathogen. Metronidazole is a commonly used medication that kills or reduces populations of flagellated protozoa and related beasties. In captive corns, flagellated protozoa infestation is probably the number-one cause of CRS (not counting overfeeding and improper cage temperatures).

Regardless of how you two deal with your situations, it's never wise to make your own diagnoses. It would probably be the smartest money you ever spent, taking your snakes to a qualified reptile vet to make sure you know who the enemy is. I recommend that you DO NOT attempt medicating your snakes without the help from a qualified reptile vet, but either way, you must practice post-regurgitation procedures. The only thing we know for sure is that your snakes surrendered virtually all their stomach acids with the first regurgitation and are now incapable of normal digestion. Often, the only thing wrong with them is that deficit of digestive acids. The thing to keep in the front of your mind through all this is CAGE CONDITIONS. If they're not ideal, you're wasting your time and possibly your entire collection. If your snakes actually are sick, every day you are not correcting the problem, you could be infecting every reptile you own. It's almost impossible to completely prevent cross-contamination, just from washing your hands and arms between snakes.

Good luck.
South Mountain Reptiles

HerpZillA Dec 08, 2007 08:16 PM

In short.
I upped temps some.
I waited a period to recover and smaller food, but sounds like not small enough, shes near 30" but tiny head. Very small mouse on first feed, tehn fuzzy, then a peach fuzzy, over a 2 month period or so.

Cage is 9"x15" tub, at least 2" of aspen. She roams little. Either buries on warm end, or on top of aspen on warm end.

Gave flagyl now, ordered nutribac, figured why not.

Also plan to call a good local vet for an appointment.

Bottom line, I guess I'm not use to corns. If a boa ups a meal wait 2 weeks, and feed small, cant recall a 2nd regurge? This one threw me. Got a bit impatient, and prolly should have waited 1.5 months for a new feed.

I am glad to see I'm not the only one. I'm sure others must say like me,,, "why always me?"

I've had more imput on this than you can possibly imagine. From brumate the snake, to tube feed it as tube feeding is easier to digest and harder to regurg? No idea if that is true. And not a great source.

Time to see Victoria Wendt. Super lady and loved herps.

Thanks for all the input, I've learned a lot.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
www.HerpHelp.com

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