Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a western hog that's about 20 months old (breeder said she was a year old and that was in spring of 07) that has gone off her food.

She was taking f/t pinkies, about every 5 days, one or two at a sitting. Often she'd eat them straight off the tongs so no problems there. I have tried split brain pinkies and scenting with tuna, and halving a pinky to no avail.

Coming up on two months now since the last time she took food. I have not decreased the temperature, she has about 80-85 in the hot side and 5-10 degrees cooler on the cool side. She spends all her time curled up on the cool side these days, but i do see her moving around to have a drink, etc.

Is she trying to go into brumation on her own perhaps? Would the best course of action be to just cool her down for a couple months and keep her hydrated? I don't think it's a fussy eating thing since she was eating so well before, but I'm not experienced with hogs.

Thanks in advance.

If you read many of the posts around this time of year, that's exactly what people will tell you. It's getting to be colder outside, and even though the snakes are inside, they can tell it's that time of year. You can continue to try and feed, but you may just want to go ahead and brumate.
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

Thanks. I'm going to drop it to about 60 over the coming week and stop trying to feed until I guess February or March from what I've read.

I appreciate the quick help.

Depending on your geographic location, you could brumate for as little as 4 weeks or up through March. I guess it all depends on your plans for the future as well.

I've stopped feeding and will be cooling through December, then brumate until the end of February. I will begin warming them the start of March.

Good Luck!
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

>> I have not decreased the temperature, she has about 80-85 in the hot side

Just one point: IMO an 80-85F range is too cool for a hognose, muchless any temperate reptile. Avg body temp of basking hogs ranges from 90-100F. When you bring the snake back from its quasi-hibernation, try giving it a warmer hot side, assuming you can still give it a cool side in the 70s.
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Thanks for the tip. So far I've just been gauging it based on behavior, and she has been regularly moving to and from the two zones throughout the day.

>>Thanks for the tip. So far I've just been gauging it based on behavior, and she has been regularly moving to and from the two zones throughout the day.

Excellent! That sounds perfectly fine. My previous post only states that hogs in the wild prefer a much higher temp than is usually provided in captivity. However, I am a firm believer that that captive animals don't necessarily require perfectly natural conditions to thrive. Experiment. If the snake NEVER uses the hottest part of the container even after a few months, it's safe to say that the snake never will like a 100F basking spot, and you can reduce it down.
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Somewhat along these lines...

Due to the cold-blooded nature of reptiles and the need for thermoregulation, one would expect that the snake would adjust its position based on its needs rather than the actual temps in the enclosure. As long as there are hides on both the cool and warm side, the snake is going to position itself in the enclosure based on its need for heat.

With that said, you could have a hot side that reaches 100 degrees and that should not pose a problem. The snake will sense that its too hot and position itself at a place just outside the hottest part to achieve temps below 100. I highly doubt that a snake can differentiate between 85 and 95 degrees to the extent that it knows which spot to go to because that is the temp they experience in "the wild". Now, if you have a hot side in a small enclosure that prevents a nice temperature gradient, therein lies a problem.

So, to make a long story short: if there is a temperature gradient, the actual temperature in a specific spot should not matter all that much. As long as there is an appropriately warm and cool side, the snake is going to position itself in the enclosure based on its requirement for heat.

Hope this made sense, it did in my head.
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

Robert, you and I are thinking along the same lines, but I wanted to clarify some points.

>> As long as there are hides on both the cool and warm side, the snake is going to position itself in the enclosure based on its need for heat.
>>Now, if you have a hot side in a small enclosure that prevents a nice temperature gradient, therein lies a problem.
>>As long as there is an appropriately warm and cool side, the snake is going to position itself in the enclosure based on its requirement for heat.

All of the statements above support my reasons for continually advocating the use of at least a 20 gallon tank for hognoses, even for hatchlings. It does not matter how big the snake is, it is the size of the container that dictates the ability to provide a thermogradient.

>> you could have a hot side that reaches 100 degrees and that should not pose a problem. The snake will sense that its too hot and position itself at a place just outside the hottest part to achieve temps below 100.

The statement implies that hognoses do not prefer temperatures at 100° or more. I recommend temperatures around 95° simply because it is safer than attempting to get 100° and cooking the snake accidentally at 110°. The studies I have read have confirmed that hogs, in general, had been found basking with body temperatures at or near 100°. Granted they may be only basking at that temperature for a short time, but we do know that they prefer that temperature.

>>I highly doubt that a snake can differentiate between 85 and 95 degrees to the extent that it knows which spot to go to because that is the temp they experience in "the wild".

Agree with the "knowing what is a wild" part. However, a 10° difference is a huge difference in the metabolism of an ectotherm! On the centigrade scale, a 10° difference has an exponential effect. A 10° difference in a hibernating reptile can be the difference between starving to death and being at perfect homeostasis. I hope you are not suggesting that there is not a need to provide a specific temperature range on the hot side of the tank.

>>So, to make a long story short: if there is a temperature gradient, the actual temperature in a specific spot should not matter all that much.

I realize this may be a technical point, but the temperature in a specific spot does matter. If we know that (presumably) healthy hognoses in the wild prefer a body temperature of 100°, and a person keeping a hognose in captivity only provides an 85° basking spot, it is easy to assume that the captive snake will not be able to behaviorally reach their preferred body temperature... ESPECIALLY when the snake is sick (all animals WILL get sick and die, after all). Let us assume that a sick wild hognose will use a "behavioral fever" by basking a little bit longer and getting their body temperature up to 105° in order to fight off whatever infection. Relative to the wild hognose, the captive hognose is at a severe disadvantage since its temperature possibilities are far below what are available to the wild hognose. SO! The point of all this is to emphasize that captive herps should be provided a thermogradient, and be provided a temperature slightly warmer than "normal" so that whenever the animal gets sick, it has the ability to get warmer and get better. Who knows of how many issues with captive hognoses could be corrected just by providing a temperature that would be conducive to a "self-healing" by the snake!
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

I am on the same track as you. A lot of my statements were hypothetical in nature and in no way reflective of my own practices.

What I was trying to say about the 85-95 degree thing was that a snake most likely will not seek a specific temperature that they would find in the "wild". Let's say that hognoses have been found basking at 95 in nature. Does that mean that in a proper thermogradient that a captive hognose is going to seek the exact spot in the enclosure that is 95 degrees? Or is it more likely that the captive hognose will simply move to the hot side until sufficient heating is achieved, then move on?

I guess when I put it in words, it didn't have the same meaning as in my head. lol
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

Sounds good Robert! I haven't been on this forum in about a year, and since I haven't used that part of my brain in a while a lot of that just poured out. Remember, we aren't just talking to each other, there are hundreds of others reading this thread, so I partially speak to them as well.
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for posting all that info. My Hog recently stopped eating and I was getting concerned. None of my other snakes go into hibernation, so its a bit foreign to me. Thanks again for all the info. I'm new to the forum... I actually just registered so I could say thanks.

Well, that is nice of you. Unfortunately, the biggest problem with hognoses is the thing that new owners never seem to know about. I'm sure sellers don't want you to know that a snake he is selling will not eat for months at a time and it's completely normal. Good luck with your hog, there's plenty of info on this forum!
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine