Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off I would like to thank Rich Hebron for bringing the topic up as I found it very educational on several levels.

I am new to snakes and my focus is/has shifted to Pituophis and I hope to work with these snakes for many years to come. My thoughts on locality are simple... If you say you have Barrens locality pines then you should have the data to back it up and the same extends to any other locale specific snakes be they bulls, corns (Hah.) or kings or what have ya!
As for the whole this guy or that guy have this many years in the hobby and therefor are legit I say...BAH! Unless someone can back-up the claims then I do not care how long they have been doing this. I do know breeders that I can trust for the animals I want...I also avoid certain animals I want because verifying the lineage is damned near immposible such as LA Pines...
Think of it this way... You go out and by a pricey car that is a collectible... Advetisement for the car reads " 1967 bahama tracer, 2 owner car low milage" You think "WOW' you spend 150grand on the car and take it home... then a few years down the road you go to sell it to another car collector only to find out that the car you thought was a collectible is actually only a kit car and worth 10grand... OUCH!
Same thing with locale and lineage of snakes... You buy a male and a female from 2 seperate breeders both whom you trust and feel comfortable hence you do not ask for specifics and take the snakes a breed them. You take the hatchlings ans market them as such and such locality bulls or pines. This trend continues over several years and through several people.
Now you have X number of newer breeders selling these "Locale" specific snakes..none of them having a real clue or data as to the actual lineage of their snakes. Then along comes a guy named... Bubba (Love them southern names) and he questions the lineage...UH OHHH! The breeder refers him to his supplier and so on down the line to the original breeder who says that he can verify one of the founder stock but not the other. Bubba in turn tells a bunch of his herp friends and so and so on and the breeders who failed to verify the lineage wind up looking like idiots and hence the hobby and species takes a hit.
People need to think about more than the sale when pushing locale specific animals as that animal may eventually be a breeder animal for a newbie and could lead to not only the new guys reputation being trashed because of poor records but also the loss of a fellow herper to the hobby, believe me we all know how this could lead to a bad taste being left in someones mouth.
If what I have written above makes any sense... (I am a yankee so it might not to some and I am dog tired so it might not to others) the whole locale issue has many levels of importance the least of which being the legitamacy of that aspect of the hobby as the future unfolds...

Hope I made some sense
Charles

Valid points and well written even if I didn't agree.

If were were talking about alterna, people would hang the breeders without a paper trail. When it comes to Pits, just saying "my friend" collected them decades ago is supposed to be enough of an answer to quite all questions.

Additionally, let's just say I have been very UNIMPRESSED with the verification that some of these "well known" herpers put into checking out their bloodlines. (If that is the case with even one snake they claim is a locality animal, should I blindly trust the rest of their stuff?) I was also VERY unimpressed with some of these people's lack of interest in sharing information (and arrogance towards the average herper). Who cares how much a person has learned over the past 30 years if they don't SHARE it with others. Knowledge that isn't shared is knowledge lost!

Kudos to people like John Cherry (even if he is senile....lol) who willing share some of the information with the rest of us that they have learned over the last 30 years!

Finally, I agree that the animals you collect yourself are the best locality animals available, but herp breeding started to reduce the need for wild collected animals. If we can't supervise ourselves enough to do what we said was out main goal (decades ago), why are we still doing this except as a way to just make money? Be honest with yourself....or admit we've failed at our original goal in this hobby and move on! If someone claims that you can ONLY trust the locality animals you collect, why are they selling locality animals if they admit that even their CB offspring can't be trusted...lol. I weish they'd stop talking out of both sides of their mouth! Either locality CAN be traced with reliable breeders and good paper trails and locality issues are important OR they can't and aren't. Pick one and say what you mean. Stop trying to imitate Bill Clinton! Personally, I believe that locality animals do have an important place in this hobby, and I do believe that they can be maintained IF proper verification occurs from the beginning and not 30 years after the fact.

Sorry. I didn't mean to get on a soapbox!
KJ

Thanks for the well written reply KJ and if it was not for poeple such as yourself many of us newer to the hobby may never learn others points of view and therby never have atleast some starting points to search out info and new ideas!
The locality issue is one that I as a new herper am very much taking serious and feel is very important to not only the species but to the hobby as a whole. The issue of locality to me is something that people need to to take a stand on and begin to demand data that supports a breeders claim to local specific lines.
I also feel as a newbie to snakes that many of the more established people sometimes forget how much their words and and the way they act and present themselves and their snakes mean to many of the newer folks not only on this forum but within the hobby as whole.
I personally wish that those folks who have locality or claim to have locality specific animals yet are not sure would take the time to either verify their claims or stop claiming to have what they cannot verify. I believe this would further the hobby and strengthen those bloodlines and help protect those bloodlines that ARE locale specific.
I give thanks to John Cherry, Terry Parks, Del Alspaw and many of the veteran posters on this forums for sharing their experiences with us new folks!

Charles

Again, well put charles! If a person can't put the effort together to verify liniage, they who's to say they put the effort together to find out tif their stock really is locality?!
-Cole

I'm just curious on what you base your comment about La. Pines. Although they're harder to find than Northerns, I believe they're lineage is easier to trace.

As I said I am new to snakes however I have heard enough people talk about mutts being passed off as LA pines and have seen more than one person pushing animals as LA pines that were not. This is what I was refering to when I said what I said in refrence to LA pines.
I know that there are a few breeders out there that are working with pure bloodline LA pines (Getting them to cough them up is another thing)... but take a look at their numbers compared to those who are selling LA pines that are plainly nothing more than hybrid mutts... to a person who does not have the knowledge or the info...or know where to get either (Many thanks to my guiding hands) LA pines are one of the more difficult snakes to trust after they readily hear the horror stories about misrepresented snakes and the such...
If I offended anyone with that statement about the LA pines It was not my intention and you have my sincerest apologies.

Charles

No need for apologies. I wasn't being accusatory. I agree that while La. Pines are scarce and there are quite a few crosses floating around, the real ones are at least tracable, whereas the northerns seem to lack tracability alltogether after reading this thread.

I'm just curious on what you base your comment about La. Pines. Although they're harder to find than Northerns, I believe they're lineage is easier to trace.

Somehting I did not expect occured after I posted the original thread in regards to marketed locale specific pines. I had received many e-mails from newer collectors that were afraid of questioning the authoritative nature attributed to these well known breeders of pituophis. Their fear was of being attacked by others because they were so new to collecting. They for the most part not knowing much about wild Pine populations felt they had nothing to offer.

If this is the message our young enthusiats are getting we have surely failed somewhere. What if the fear to request knowledge prevents our youth from learning the origins of many of these fine natural types of reptiles prevails? What if they started creating their own types?

Realizing now there are many that never had a chance to experience legally collected pines from these various locales as they are now protected, and the thought of never having the possibility of even seeing a pine in the wild at all means we do need to exhibit more responsibility.

I believe there is a need to keep the fire burning on these magnificent natural type herps with accurate information being made available in the hopes that our future herpers do realize the importance of continuing these lines.

Showing a lack of concern at this stage, with maintaining clean records on locality, may be one of the contributing factors that is fast setting the ground stage of pioneers in the future marketing of correctly documented hybrids.

Why not give them something better?

Rich Hebron

..

I keep hearing people talk about "paper trail" and documentation. Let's see if this example is what people are looking for. My friend Mark Metterhouse lived in Port Charlotte FL., Sarasota county. He bred rats and mice in his garage. He would consistently find yellow rats in his garage trying to eat his mice and rats. On one trip down there to visit him, he sent a group home with me. I gave my friend Bart Bruno a few of them. He bred them and sent a few back to me. When I breed mine I will sell them as Sarasota county yellow rats. This is what locality means to me. Does this satisfy everyone? John Meltzer

Actually John, thats somewhat similar of how I have been putting a group of Blotched Kings together. Dates and numbers acquired help as well. I actually like that (data) since I spend most of my time working with numbers. My group is based on herps collected by individuals while in that area.

I would also look into the area where the herps originated browsing photos and such (if possible)prior to purchase to get an idea of what they should be expected (any distinguishing characteristics)to look like. Thats me though.

There are other variables that can influence such thought. The time frame matters as well especialy if we are speaking of herps that have been restricted from collection for a period of time. There is one thing to know where the herps originated but it also helps to make sure once identified you are not also working with an extremely inbred line.

Now, back to the yellow rats. Is this just an example as I have been looking for a few from Seminole county and am not to familiar with the yellows out of Sarasota?

Rich Hebron

np

John, again I think you are right back to the beginning...those who trust and know you it would be a sufficent trail...those who don't would want FBI background checks on all of the parties invloved with lie detector tests and a congressional hearing!!! : )

I think most people only expect some sincerity. There are new people getting into this hobby every day and they deserve facts. Silence though, on locality, which is how many handled the previous thread was certainly not the solution. It was an honest question that many failed to answer. Actually, the example John did give here was not practiced earlier. When he did mention he received his herps from a friend, it was pretty much dropped as the buck was passed to another.

BTW, I did find your previous post a good write. I know you meant this post in jest but I did not want the wrong message sent to new readers considering where the direction of the last thread turned.

Rich Hebron

Rich,

I think that if you found people being silent, perhaps it is your attitude that maybe doesn't grant you an entire explanation on someone's locale. You have had a completely disrespectful and childish attitude towards breeders that you are automatically assuming are "covering" something up if they don't react the way you want them to. It is this attitude that may draw newcomers away as they read your posts. Bro, don't let a dividing attitude cause division in this wonderful hobby of ours. Also, what is this " silence" to begin with that you are freaking out about? Did every breeder that bred northern pines get automatically silent when you asked them about the locale info? Did this really happen? The fact that you want locale info is one thing, which I agree with you on and is cool that you are really interested in it, so am I. I commend you for that, and it is something we have in common. The fact that you are now bascially saying John was silent " as the buck passed" is completely ludicrous and purely an absurd assumption. You are speaking of someone you don't know. I suggest knowing the entire story of someone before making conclusions.

I hope that you take this to heart Rich.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Billy, actually I was a heck of alot fairer then you were in this post here concerning myself. You may want to consider my original thread started below before you assume anything. As I can see you have dropped into such an issue late and are already attacking someone. I would suggest you read what transpired before you label me or anyone else anything more then what they are.

My thread begun earlier was based on one question. Regards to locale specific herps marketed as such and info. on lineage.

If thats childish so be it. I actually find yourself showing much prejudice in openly attacking me for stating facts attributed to a sincere thread I stated earlier and was thusly attacked for just asking the question. It was not me approach.

I suggest you be thorough is what you claim just as I believe these breeders who state locale info. for marketing purposes be thorough in their facts.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

Rich,

I am in awe of how weird your response was. Seriously, this isn't that hard to talk about, and let's go through this sloooowwwlly.......

"Billy, actually I was a heck of alot fairer then you were in this post here concerning myself. You may want to consider my original thread started below before you assume anything. As I can see you have dropped into such an issue late and are already attacking someone."

How in the world am I attacking you??? Seriously...what words did I use to attack you, Rich H?

"My thread begun earlier was based on one question. Regards to locale specific herps marketed as such and info. on lineage."

COOL!!!! Great question!!!!! I am right there with ya!

"If thats childish so be it. I actually find yourself showing much prejudice in openly attacking me for stating facts attributed to a sincere thread I stated earlier and was thusly attacked for just asking the question. It was not me approach."

What you are finding is something that is obviously made up, that is me attacking you. What prejudice do I have against you? I don't even know you! LOL! What is factual about branding John silent about locale " as the buck passes?" There is not one ounce of fact to that statement, or rather absurd assumption. That is something that is not very cool to do towards another.

"I suggest you be thorough is what you claim just as I believe these breeders who state locale info. for marketing purposes be thorough in their facts"

Anything you say about a breeder being "silent" about locale when you haven't even talked to them face to face about this whole issue is not very thorough. Have they actually said " I state locale for marketing purposes?" Of course they wouldn't but if you talked to some breeders who may do that unfortunate action, you would probably be able to figure that out. However, if you TALKED to breeders that are honest about locale and know info about lineage, like Meltzer, Ginter, and others, then you would maybe be able to figure out that they are the good guys as well.

Don't you remember me saying things in my post out of encouragement, and wanting to help you get on the right path, etc? How is any of that attacking you? I think that you got upset that I called you on some things, that is all. Thank you for making that obvious.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Billy, it is apparent you have spent no time in reading any of what transpired earlier with my two threads. Actually, I am starting to see you have not even read the current thread you are writing in as it is a spinoff from my original thread by another participant.

I have dealt with this type of attitude in my previous thread Daytona Pit Hunting. Many have stated their stance there on this topic. What you are doing here was well addressed in that thread. Slow, fast or whatever take the time to read the 30-40 posts made as you might be enlightened. If you can not handle the facts so be it but stating lies in this thread where something good was actually developing from that thread is very uncommendable on your behalf.

Lets show a little maturity here by at least exhibiting some sense of interest in what we all had to endure in the original post where the "Facts" have been discussed by many.

I'm starting to think having you against me is a good thing. Your responses and attitude are exactly where that thread was heading in dealing with my original question.

Lets try to keep any further discussion, on this topic, without all the drama, sticking to the facts at hand.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

Rich,

The unprofessional level at which you are responding to my questions is at an all time high. Point is, you are not responding to ANYTHING I have stated! LOL! I am beginning to think that this is all a joke. For all I know, you may be some kid playing a prank on us. There are those that feel that you may not even be a hobbyist, and have another agenda in this sad display. This is by far the worst post I have seen in here, due to you avoiding question after question over facts you claim that are true that have no bearing or truth to them. It seems like everything is going way over your head and in one ear, out the other.

Again................and this is for all the forum to see....

1. You spoke earlier of the top breeder's " authoritive nature" and how newcomers wouldn't want to question lineages due to that. Where in God's green earth have you come up with this? We are all scratching our heads trying to figure this out.

2. What is this silence you speak of? This evil, conspiracy filled silence..out to make sure no one knows the true lineages of the northern pines out. If you get silence, consider how immature your actions have been. Not by asking, but by stating false facts.

3. What lies did I state? Please explain.

4. What facts, and I mean F-A-C-T-S did you state in any of your posts? You say we should stick to the facts at hand. Bro, read the first part of this question # 4. What facts are you making your statements from?

5. Where is this paper trail that you seek??????? Who has this?

What makes this whole thing more apparent, as far as your true intentions, is that you have now stated, " having you against me is a good thing". First, I am not against you. Second, you are rejoicing in saying that it is a good thing. Brother, the fact you said that ridiculous statement shows me and the whole pit forum this.

You are here to cause trouble.

I encouraged you not to bring a divisive attitude. You have done otherwise by:

a) stating that John Meltzer kept quiet about his locale as the buck passed. That is such a lie and is quite rude and disrespectful to say such a thing.

b) your blatant disregard to answer any particular question.

Bro, if you aren't going to answer any questions that I have repeatedly asked you, then what is the point of you responding with more distractions from the main point?

Take care!
Billy

Billy, it is apparent you have spent no time in reading any of what transpired earlier with my two threads. Actually, I am starting to see you have not even read the current thread you are writing in as it is a spinoff from my original thread by another participant.

I have dealt with this type of attitude in my previous thread Daytona Pit Hunting. Many have stated their stance there on this topic. What you are doing here was well addressed in that thread. Slow, fast or whatever take the time to read the 30-40 posts made as you might be enlightened. If you can not handle the facts so be it but stating lies in this thread where something good was actually developing from that thread is very uncommendable on your behalf.

Lets show a little maturity here by at least exhibiting some sense of interest in what we all had to endure in the original post where the "Facts" have been discussed by many.

I'm starting to think having you against me is a good thing. Your responses and attitude are exactly where that thread was heading in dealing with my original question.

Lets try to keep any further discussion, on this topic, without all the drama, sticking to the facts at hand.
-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy, I was attempting to take your responses as serious but after your last thread I have come to the conclusion you are actually a real life example of several posts made by me and others. No one is stating anything to do with a conspiracy, BTW. Enough with that kick. Also, if you read the posts made earlier everything you question was actually answered by most of these breeders themselves. Stop shooting the messenger and start getting the message.

I was though trying to figure out why this Billy Doe was so adament is his drama? I decided to do a little scroll on previous posts made by Billy in this forum. What unfortunately was revealed was basically a new person involved with herp keeping who is wide eyed with himself. Not actually the herps.

Billy, I noticed you have leaped before looking many times before. Very unfortunate for example the LA pine incident. You were all over the boards with that story. Maybe, if you did your homework and were not so fearful to possibly question the people a little more thoroughly you may have learned much yourself withouy proving our case made in the original thread on locality so well. Getting off your duff and doing a little digging has its rewards, doesn't it?

This loyalty you have for other breeders as well shows a sign that you also do not believe they can speak for themselves. That came out clear in the previous post/thread as well. I mean why do they have to be accountable at all with any data when they have customers so loyal as yourself that will buy from them with total trust and then shout from the rooftops at any others who dare to question them. Actually says alot about their character to sit back and let such a spokeperson as yourself defend them. If you read any of our posts made earlier all this would have been apparent to you.

I can go on and on but letting you do what you do is actually a good thing as we can all see now the proof of what has been created by these issues. You are a great example in proving to others many of the points that came out of the previous threads.

It is a pleasure to be in disagreement with someone such as yourself. I will no longer dabate these issues with you as you are extremely prejudiced in your views and have no clue of having a well grounded premise to base any conclusions you come to in regards to this discussion.

It is my fear that if I keep debating with a fool others that may read this stuff may not be able to tell the difference. Fortune cookie wisdom but seems applicable.

Oh, here is a copy from a previous post I wrote that you may find much in common with!!!!!!!!! At least read it>> the ending seems so fitting with where you almost ended up if you bred that LA pine we spoke of before.

Something I did not expect occured after I posted the original thread in regards to marketed locale specific pines. I had received many e-mails from newer collectors that were afraid of questioning the authoritative nature attributed to these well known breeders of pituophis. Their fear was of being attacked by others because they were so new to collecting. They for the most part not knowing much about wild Pine populations felt they had nothing to offer.

If this is the message our young enthusiats are getting we have surely failed somewhere. What if the fear to request knowledge prevents our youth from learning the origins of many of these fine natural types of reptiles prevails? What if they started creating their own types?

Realizing now there are many that never had a chance to experience legally collected pines from these various locales as they are now protected, and the thought of never having the possibility of even seeing a pine in the wild at all means we do need to exhibit more responsibility.

I believe there is a need to keep the fire burning on these magnificent natural type herps with accurate information being made available in the hopes that our future herpers do realize the importance of continuing these lines.

Showing a lack of concern at this stage, with maintaining clean records on locality, may be one of the contributing factors that is fast setting the ground stage of pioneers in the future marketing of correctly documented hybrids.

Why not give them something better?

Rich Hebron

Rich...again, you have tried to sound wise behind a keyboard, just like anyone can try, and with no luck....I really don't understand your fascination with this. I am so sorry my friend.

I guess that it is impossible to have a legit,adult conversation with you. I tried!

I hope to see you in here still, as I have no ill will towards you. It would be good for you to be in a forum where people care about this hobby, a hobby I have been in for a long time. I hope you can enjoy owning a pure locale northern pine soon.

Take care! Good luck!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

>>I guess that it is impossible to have a legit,adult conversation with you. I tried!

Billy,

Get off of that horse - it is too high. With the way you came on, insulted him, and verbally attacked him, you are lucky he even replied to you without an apology from you to begin with. ...and yes, it DOES read like one big long verbal insult/attack to many of us.

KJ

Billy, that I am guilty of not fully reading your posts as I found your personal attacks against me based on yourself being full of just that, yourself. That was right from your beginning statements. It became obvious you had not followed the previous threads at hand instead trying to make a crusade for something aside of anything I viewed beneficial. So I basically never got passed your first comments.

Why you noticed no progress in my responses as well as the attesting to them being very wordy is because I basically cut and pasted maybe 90% or more you read here from earlier posts from the posts I referred to in my original threads. I would have thought you would have at least realized that much but it did not become apparent. Hence my premise that you did not read anything aside from what you wrote as well as you being full of yet, yourself.

Something good did come out of this though as I did get you to read at least something here so you must have took much of what I had to say important to begin with to even get so offended to feel the need to attack me so blatantly.

It would have been nice if you let these breeders speak for themselves. You as their spokesperson I am sure is not helping their silence in any way. But hey, thats just my opinion.

Thanks though for being a good example for all the posts that came out of this above. You became a good picture of the case in point worth more then the thousands of words posted in these threads could have ever described.

Rich Hebron

Rich,

This is way beyond a mature level. Again.......and hopefully for the last time....
Where have I made personal attacks? How can I make a personal attack if I don't KNOW you??????????????????
Here are facts that are as simple as the term " Clinton is a liar.":

You made a public lie on a forum.
I challenged you on it, and you provided no proof.
Now, you have made yourself look foolish, and are trying to cover it up with your posts that contain no tact, no fact, and have resorted to name calling.
Please stop!

I don't know you, as you don't know me. I have no desire to call you names, make personal attacks, etc. Why would I? We are two hobbyists, who like pits, and myself and many others have talked with you about this issue.

These breeders with the " silence" you have made up actually have lives, and do not have as much time as me or you have to come on here. They have lots of animals to take care of, and have families as well. I am not anyone's spokesperson, but someone who has called you on a lie. It is that simple, and a ton of people know it.

And as always, I will leave this with some encouragement. Go find yourself a locale northern pine. They are out there, are wonderful to have as pets, and are so awesome unlike most other snakes. Take care and have a great day!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

KJ,

I will make this very simple, so it doesn't go over your head like everything has with Rich. I don't think it will, since I consider you to be a cool guy and you pay attention to detail.

1. Where did I verbally insult or attack Rich? Please show me. I have asked over and over for anyone to show me where I have attacked him? Is this too much of a task for anyone? I like how people have looked over his childish name calling, which I have yet to do, cause I actually have treated him with respect.
2. What high horse am I on? From what viewpoint? And for what reason would I be on a high-horse?

Take care!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Well, it it takes sucking up and butt kissing to get locality data, count me out......lol. I'll leave that to the ones that do that stuff.

Why has this become such an issue anyway? I don't get it. Rich asked for proof. Either supply it or say you don't have it. Rich didn't bring up names on the forum - others did! Heck, he even asked me ifI knew of any. I told him no since the ones I used to have were generic. I didn't get offended like some of these guys did...lol.

I thought this was moving in a positive direction. This post upset me, I must admit, so I guess I was wrong about the direction this was moving.

KJ