Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think I said that correctly. Im just wondering how people on here feel about mixes or mutts......boas like salmontines, albino crosses with everything from Surinam to Argentine to Guyana. Im curious about peoples opinions on these snakes. Is this wrong to do or is it all part of selective breeding? Should we as breeders be trying to create the best looking snakes.....or should we be selective breeding only within the same subspecies? Isnt a sunglow a mutt in this sense then? Didnt both hypo genes come from not columbian blood? I just the other night was thinking about all of this, Ive seen some amazing animals that were mixed, and knowing a bit about genetics, actually diversity and crosses usually make stronger genes.....look at dogs and cats......anyone who knows anything knows that a mutt is usually a smarter dog than a pure bred animal.....this is a general statement, but I think its pretty true......

So Im not sure how I feel about it, I used to think that you shouldnt make mutt snakes.....but now Im not so sure.....look at the gorgeous Sharps that are being made crossed with the Guyana boa......or the Kahl albinos crosses with Argentines, Surinams, and panamanian boas......again can we not trace back the salmon and orange tail hypo genes to a Central American Boa? If so why do breeders that talk bad against cross breeding, sell Sunglows with no problems?

Just things to that I have been pondering......I could be way off here, and if I am Im looking forward to those with more expertise than I to set me straight.

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Paul Harb

I personally say if it works then do it. We as humans are mutts of different locals so why not let the snakes do it too.
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My Photobucket

The only downside is that a snake's history becomes harder to track.

I can see why people interbreed, to produce new looks. Sunset boas are gorgeous.

But at the same time, some people love the look of purebred subspecies.

It's much like dog breeding - some people love Dobermans or other specially breeds, some people fall in love with mutts.

The thing to look out for is if you start interbreeding, any offspring that you have that do not show some kind of different, distinguishable look won't be worth much. As a pet, this doesn't matter. Just be prepared that while you are trying your breeding experiments, you may have to sell any normal-looking babies cheaply.

I would get mad if I wanted to buy a pure Hog Island boa and some breeder had crossed one with a colombian and tried to sell the babies as "pure hog island". I like the looks of pure Hogs, and that they stay smaller. Muddying their genes with colombian BCI would cause them to get larger and might affect coloration in a way I didn't want. So, be honest about the parentage of your snakes' offspring.

I don't think anyone will ever agree about what is "right". Some people will experiment and therefore come up with new looks, like salmontines and sunset boas. Some people want to preserve the "original" pure look of locality boas (especially endangered or rare types), and will appreciate that sort of breeding.

I see positives to both breeding plans, but think honest representation of history is paramount.
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Lauren Madar - OphidiaGems.com | CageMakers
1.1 Ball Python, 1.0 Hog Island Boa, 1.1 Hypo BCI, 1.1 Surinam BCC, 1.1 Saharan Sand Boa

I have a mixed opinion on this subject. I personally believe that there isn't a prettier boa morph than a pure Suriname or Guyana locale wild snake. I'm not a fan of hybrids and don't condone the practice of cross-breeding, but I don't really consider these hybrids. The problem lies in mass breeding of a particular color with no attention to possible genetic problems associated with that mutation. Many breeders are out to capitalize on the demand and just want to breed the morph, regardless of whether the snakes are good quality or not.

Dont Own them !
Would never own them !
Generally dont give anything resembling,nor the breeders of such a second look.
Then again were Hobbyist so mixing with profiteers would be of the same like mentioned breedings.
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TnK

First of all the so called "big name breeders" will rarely get into this subject for the following reason:
They are into the hobby as a money making economic interest driven to create hybrids, artificial/designer creations, crossbreeds or intergrades.

I have noticed a decline in the high prices of many morphs and an influx of so many "pure" snakes being available recently from breeders who also happen to breed crosses and hybrids and so and and so forth?

The emphasis in this hobby for responsible breeders is the appreciation of pure breed, locality specific pythons and boas only.
It is in my opinion, a violation of ethical captive breeding principles to manipulate recessive genetic defects, to breed HYBRIDS, ARTIFICIAL/ DESIGNER CREATIONS, CROSSBREEDS or *INTERGRADES.
(* Intergrades in the boid complex may occur at natures discretion; however this occurs in nature under specific sets of natural variables that I do not believe to be part of responsible captive management, under most circumstances.)

High quality animals, with confirmed origins are available from a select group of dedicated breeders.
Pure breed and locality specific animals are becoming increasingly valuable and sought after by purists in the hobby.
In my opinion the distinctive and individual character of boas should be as they have evolved via natural selection. To foster an appreciation of the ideal boid as they are in nature.
Selective breeding of exemplary locality specific pythons and boas embodies and reflects this ideal.

The sacred nature of all creation mandates that we view ourselves as caretakers of the natural realm. We are but a part of, and responsible for the sacred whole. The irresponsibility of the "designer boa crowd" has instilled a sense of irresponsibility into a whole generation of future herpers, so to speak; compare it to to fashion, its disposable and fake. Like paying more for a cubic zirconia than a real diamond.

This is my opinion.

"In my opinion the distinctive and individual character of boas should be as they have evolved via natural selection. To foster an appreciation of the ideal boid as they are in nature.
Selective breeding of exemplary locality specific pythons and boas embodies and reflects this ideal."

So, since the average boa is rather plain looking, only those should be used for breeding?

Picking out the prettiest ones for captive breeding is wrong since over generations of repeating this process the average look of the babies will not be the same as the average wild animal?

Taking it one step further, only live prey should be offerred since that is the way nature intended it? If the snake gets bit and scarred, that would be even better since it would look more like those in the wild?

And one further step, each boa needs to come with a WC address so it can only be bred to another within a specified distance, the distance they would travel in the wild?

Sorry, I tend to be a bit (OK, a lot) sarcastic. In your comments you are already supporting one level of selective breeding in order to produce specific animals. Since the Kahl albino did occur in the wild, what's the difference in selectively breeding it to produce more of those, it is exemplory of one specific WC animal?

Just having fun with a volatile thread.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

The bigger silver bullet on this for me is the Sunglow......fine, the kahl albinism strain started in the wild and we duplicated it, nothing wrong with that I think most agree.....but what about when we decided to mix in a hypo gene to create the sunglow which is sold by just about every breeder......the hypo gene is NOT from a columbian boa but from a central american boa as I understand it, neither the orange tail or the salmon variety.....sooooo.....why do I hear so many breeders talking down about mixed boas but they sell sunglows?
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Paul Harb

I do see your point but then again, I have some awesome sunglows and IMO they are stunning looking animals, bred for the pet trade, not for introduction into any wild setting.

So I guess I do have some mixed boas. Also have ghosts!! I still like them even though they are "mutts".

I myself am not into pure locality boas. Is that right or wrong? Neither, just what I like!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

To be clear, I think "mutts" are great, I love my sunglows.....and Im breeding Argentine/columbian albino crosses....so I dont think crossing is bad....i think we should keep track of it though for the consumer so they know what they are getting, and of course these animals will NEVER be put into the wild, so really Im not sure what the issue about it is, which is why I posted the question, interesting that a lot of people are staying away from the question.....
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Paul Harb

That's what I was thinking about the sunglow also. I'm not quite sure but doesn't the salmons get bigger than the orangetails or do I have that backwards. But if the salmons do get bigger than it would be even a bigger mutt and a bigger dog since it is not staying true to its original dwarf size. great topic except for the locale guys comments but I also love Suris and Argentines and don't think they should mixed with the albino gene but some do look nice but I would rather achieve the red through selective breeding through the Lipstick Line I love Bloody Salmons as I think this might be the best mutt until the Bloody Sunglows come out
Bob

So you feel the same way about sunglows?
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Paul Harb

Wow, what a controversial subject!
First I would like to say is comparing intergrades to Mutts and locality traceable pure to purebred dogs is not quite accurate. A dog in its pure unaltered state is a wolf. I would compare pure breed dogs to designer morphs with about the same genetic inbreeding (line breeding); “pure bread” wild German Sheppard’s are not running through the forest in packs in Germany.
Another question is; are we altering the wild population by changing their environment and thus changing the advantageous traits for survival (deforestation, encroachment of man, climate, addition of non-native predators and pray food like European rats…). Evolution is change.
What I have personally experienced is a reptile/ pet shop selling Diamond Pythons that looked to be no more than 25% diamond. When I questioned the owner he got mad and said, “Anyone who knows snakes would know by the price that they weren’t pure!” They got the unknown combo by keeping Jungles, a ½ Diamond, an IJ, and some Coastal all in one big enclosure. They sell a lot of babies unfortunately.
I also know some big breeders that will dump their garbage in pet shops that might not know how to classify them. Then the first time snake owner starts to get into the hobby and post pictures of the new snake on this forum asking people to help classify their new treasure; of course we don’t know what the hidden genetic secrets it might have. They end up getting just enough knowledge to put the snake up for sale as a pure this or that and so on and so on. It’s too bad because, I have seen a couple of cool pattern and interesting color on some PETCO boas, marked nothing more than boa.
So do I believe in maintaining purity? Yes. Do I believe in intergrades and hybrids? Yes, with honesty and integrity. I have pure breads, morphs, and hybrids, I love them all.
Oh, and I have found, the ones who vilify people who make a profit tend to be either very young or don’t have much money themselves. Let me tell you, in countries that are socialist, you don’t have the freedom and money to own such a snake. Money makes the world go round, if used wisely.
My 2 ½ cents.

I am not intending for this thread to go off in a tangent but I dont think this aspect of your reply is realy relevant to the issue being discussed...

...you said "I have found, the ones who vilify people who make a profit tend to be either very young or don’t have much money themselves. Let me tell you, in countries that are socialist, you don’t have the freedom and money to own such a snake. Money makes the world go round, if used wisely."

(and as an aside I am unfortunately not young, and fortunatley fairly well off, and of course I would like to be able to lose a few years and gain a few more dollars)

I think the vilification of designer morph breeders is because I think such selective breeding is wrong and irresponsible.

By your statement you could also argue that just because someone is making money at what they are doing it must be right, drug dealers and most criminals would agree with you then.

One of the intended benefits of capitive breeding (the hobby in general)of boas etc was to diminish or eliminate the need for collecting animals from the wild...as the captive bred supply and quality would eliminate this negative aspect of the hobby. Because of all the designer morphs and crosses etc on the market, these breeders have set this noble and lofty goal on its back; now the need for documented and pure animals from the wild are going to be in more demand than ever.

The effect of all the cross breeding and morph creation has had the effect of creating a more threatened outlook for many of these animals especially the more insular and island subspecies; and brought out the dishonest and untrustworty in our hobby.

IMO,

"I have found, the ones who vilify people who make a profit tend to be either very young or don’t have much money themselves. Let me tell you, in countries that are socialist, you don’t have the freedom and money to own such a snake. Money makes the world go round, if used wisely."

Does not imply dishonest nor illegal practices. Of course there is tons of money to be made illegally, Not just in illegal business like drugs but also in legal ones like our hobby as well.

While I do not disagree that one intended benefit of captive breeding is to lessen the need/desire for wild caught. It still comes back to simple capitalism. If there were no intrinsic value to these animals, less people would want them and even fewer people would spend money to breed them.

Pick any animal that has no little to no value in the pet trade (or livestock animals) - some people keep them just for fun. Some scientists will keep them to study. BUT there is likely not very many folks out there breeding them to lessen the numbers taken from the wild. Plug any animal/bird/insect etc. into that...skunk, armadillo, slug, ant etc.

I totally agree with the dog/wolf analogy, I too have several "designer" animals and yeah, if I can I'll breed them to produce more. I don't plan on giving them away. Back to capitalism...
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks Dave!
Your post saves me some time with a long winded response. Sure there are people who take advantage of the consumer and the health of the animal, but the benefits out way the few. Captive breeding is keeping the genome alive in Boas. Pets, help educate people on the species, and maybe even their plight in the wild. I don’t know about you all, but making money on my hobby helps justify it to my wife.

I’m sorry if I’m a little sensitive to the whole capitalism thing but I have spent two months in Germany (and two to go) hearing how bad we are for making money and how bad we are on the environment. I have experienced a closed minded attitude with no tolerance for discussion. The idea that if someone is making money then they must be taking it from someone less fortunate pisses me off…. but I’m getting of the subject.

Except for the very high end morphs, the boas that fetch the most money are the traceable rare location boas like some of the Island verities (my personal favorites). I can’t help but think that some are collected (for profit) in wild areas that are endangered. Isn’t that criminal too? I have said it before, we should have some kind of organized system to trace pure lineage.

As long as a market exists, we will have pure strains, thanks to capitalism. Money is a strong tool as long as it is used for good!
In the case of Hog Islands, aren’t we selectively breeding them for certain traits, they look so different from the wild verity.

Props to San Jose Dave, I miss home!

Oops, long winded response.

California pure Boa strain- my favorite “pet” in my collection-

but I don't know how much I saved you, that was a fairly long winded reply..

"I don’t know about you all, but making money on my hobby helps justify it to my wife." Well DUH!!!! All the money I have ever made from it has been poured right back into the hobby (along with more of my own dollars)

And IMO, it all stems back to your original wolf - dog comment. Where would the pet dog trade be if only pure strains were allowed - a bunch of wolves running around. BTW, my dog is 100% mutt, zero idea other than looking at her what her "lineage" is. My family still loves her just as much as any purebred animal!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

and mutts are actually usually smarter and healthier animals then pure breeds....so there you go......
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Paul Harb

>>and mutts are actually usually smarter and healthier animals then pure breeds....so there you go......
>>-----
>>Paul Harb
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Reeses, an insanely bright "salmon" and yup that "mutt" is makin babies

Cyrus, a Sunglw so also a mutt...

Casper a ghost so yet another mutt

And Amber a super salmon so a big time double dose mutt?

Have several others.....
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I love mutts.... I was just throwing it out there.......especially cause I was talking to a breeder who was swearing about how these crappy mutts are being cross, and yet he was selling sunglows.....soooooooo......just got me thinking about the whole industries attitude and if it is well founded or not....
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Paul Harb

I think a lot of it comes from many generations back in the process so people tend to accept things a pure when duh, not so. My wifes parents are both of "pure" italian descent. Odly though there is a rare scandinavian blood disorder that cropped up somewhere? Musta been a fence jumped somewhere back in the past!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

You mean like intergrades? You never know what is advantageous until it is tried in the wild.

Mixing does happen in nature, although rare, it has to somehow give the animal an advantage over the rest for a given environment.

You have an interesting yet common reaction and opinion of this subject. I used to feel the same way but I am starting to change my mind. We as humans cannot seperate ourselves from nature, we are animals, pure and simple......so if we are able to change an animals genetic pool to make prettier snakes, so be it, we arent putting this back into the wild and if we did, they wouldnt survive due to the crazy colors.....Im starting to compare this argument a little to not wanting humans to have mixed kids.....but the kids genetically are different, this one has different skin, or eyes, or hair.....because of where geographically over many many generations their ancestors have grown up, is why they look and act they way they do......but we have planes now....we have ways of intermingling.....is that wrong??? some people think so. its not pure....its not even natural......its just an interesting debate....I dont see a right or wrong myself, it is what it is IMHO.....I just like to ask the question and see how people feel.....the last thing I will say is that nature will always find a way to exploit itself to keep going.......by any means, whether we like it or not......and we are not removed from that.....we are just able to reflect upon it.....
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Paul Harb

NP

Well said. The "we should let them be as nature intended" argument against morphs and sub-species crosses seems odd to me when it comes from people keeping snakes in 4' x 2' x 1' boxes.

Thanks,
Ed

>>You have an interesting yet common reaction and opinion of this subject. I used to feel the same way but I am starting to change my mind. We as humans cannot seperate ourselves from nature, we are animals, pure and simple......so if we are able to change an animals genetic pool to make prettier snakes, so be it, we arent putting this back into the wild and if we did, they wouldnt survive due to the crazy colors.....Im starting to compare this argument a little to not wanting humans to have mixed kids.....but the kids genetically are different, this one has different skin, or eyes, or hair.....because of where geographically over many many generations their ancestors have grown up, is why they look and act they way they do......but we have planes now....we have ways of intermingling.....is that wrong??? some people think so. its not pure....its not even natural......its just an interesting debate....I dont see a right or wrong myself, it is what it is IMHO.....I just like to ask the question and see how people feel.....the last thing I will say is that nature will always find a way to exploit itself to keep going.......by any means, whether we like it or not......and we are not removed from that.....we are just able to reflect upon it.....
>>-----
>>Paul Harb

it's a really nice 4' x 2' x 1' box!! LOL
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Hmm, I to have been struggling with my connsience. But I am going ahead! I want to eventially end up with as pure as you can get... A Sharp CA.(nic)So as far as I know , the only way to start is to start coss breeding with Sharp BCI X Nic. Breed the off spring together then keep a sharp back - breed this to a pure nic. Breed the off spring together etc etc. I personally dont feel there is anything wrong with crossing sub species as long as you know what you are aiming for.Remember as well as breeding for money (nothing wrong with that)but for fun and your own intrest too.
WWW.RHINOVIVS.EU

I think it would be nice for there to be some board of authority within the trade to set standards and practices, along with documentation of origin and traceability.
Animals with papers would have a value and animals without would be worth as much as a car on the auto market without a title.
The market has moved somewhat in this direction, but not nearly enough.
Hopefully, the trade will come up with standards and practices as all responsible self regulating professional bodies do, before Government steps in and does it for us. Its a shame that more and more Government regulations continue to determine the paramaters of the trade. I'm not a big fan of the Government in my business, myself.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Pure SHOULD be worth a lot, but a coool custom car always fetches a good price, papers or not.

Even a regular one with a fancy paint job can be worth more!!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Although, I would mind a “non-papered” discount on some of your fine custom jobs!

I gotta disagree with this on cars. Any of ya'll watch Barrett Jackson? A nice condition Hemi Cuda w/ documentation is worth a heck of a lot more than ALMOST any modified car out there.

While I agree that animals with valid papers would have a certain value above those without them, the ones without would still have value, kind of like papered dogs vs non papered ones. There are lots of animals with pedigrees, dogs, cats, horses, other livestock animals and those pedigrees can signifcantly add to the value of the animal. Emphasis on "add"!!

And just as with other pedigreed animals, when the pedigree process starts, animals will have to be grandfathered in. Like snake-shack said there's not packs of wild german shepards running around germany. After having been bred for most likely centuries, individual dog breeds were identified and some numbers of founding animals pedigreed.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Ya!

-Rich

I think the issue is about the right or wrong of breeding designer morphs and crossbreeds...not about the virtues of capitalism. I am all for capitalism it has served me very well.

So if we can stick to the issue about how we feel about designer morphs and crossbreeding I wrote in my original post...

"The emphasis in this hobby for RESPONSIBLE breeders is the appreciation of pure breed, locality specific pythons and boas only.
It is in my opinion, a violation of ethical captive breeding principles to MANIPULATE RECESSIVE GENETIC DEFECTS, to breed HYBRIDS, ARTIFICIAL/ DESIGNER CREATIONS, CROSSBREEDS or *INTERGRADES.
(* Intergrades in the boid complex may occur at natures discretion; however this occurs in nature UNDER SPECIFIC SETS OF NATURAL VARIABLES that I do not believe to be part of responsible captive management, under most circumstances.)"

And that is the point where the two parties diverge....

IMO, "RESPONSIBLE breeders" should be defined as a breeder that is proactively breeding two animals to produce healthy viable babies. And caring for their animals in a responsible way.

I myself do not desire hybrids/crossbreeds/intergrades but if someone else does, that's their right as long as they are honest about what they have then so be it!!

I do have several morphs and am actively manipulating recessive (and dominant for that matter) genetic mutations to create designer morphs. I think many of them look great!! I know - that's my opinion, but then again, I do have the right to it!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Ok, if you want to be responsible, how do you figure out who to breed in captivity out of a pure strain; do you flip a coin or do you fill a barrel full of snakes and let nature take over? Look at Hog Islands; they don’t look like they do in the wild. My point is if we are in control of breeding we will impose our preferences consciously or not thus resulting in something different than made in the wild. Maybe we should have a contest like a reptile version of Survivor to see who breeds.

Exactly, if you're breeding two animals away from the local they come from, you are already "altering the course of nature" so where to draw the line??? And where you choose to draw that line is not where others may choose to draw it!! So what make one line better than another?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

For that matter, I think we are delusional to think that our privately breed collections will ever be re-introduced to the wild. So the point is moot.

Wow dude......... Do you even know what "Pure" is in regards to the animals you keep? Do you have any GPS waypoints where your animals were collected? Have done field work with the animals you keep in captivity? If that is a maybe, no, and no, how are you any different from these suspossed "unethical" Breeders? I'm friends with a decent amount of breeders, me included, and I've yet to find these people or situations your referring to. I'm seriously having a hard time trying to comprehend your argument, because there are so many ways to shoot down what your inferring.

I agree. That's what I've been trying to say. Lets get a more robust and comprehensive form of documentation, origin, and traceability.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

My previous comment pertains to captive bred creations as well as wild locality types. No distinction is made between the two.
Bloodlines and origin documentation are equally important, whether artificially created morph or typical wild type.
I take no position either for or opposed. Suffice to say, genetically engineered captive created morphs are here and here to stay.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

For throwing the integrate/ hybrid conversation hand-grenade! It’s ALWAYS fun! Anyone for a religious or political discussion…just kidding.

I just want to add as it pertains to my opinion here ..."It is in my opinion, a violation of ethical captive breeding principles to manipulate recessive genetic defects, to breed HYBRIDS, ARTIFICIAL/ DESIGNER CREATIONS, CROSSBREEDS or *INTERGRADES."...that by manipulating the recessive genetic defects to achieve a desired morph etc, the lack of responsibility comes into play because you are not considering the welfare of the animal, only the wow factor and for some the $ factor....by purposefully breeding it for its weaknesses...

"that by manipulating the recessive genetic defects to achieve a desired morph etc, the lack of responsibility comes into play because you are not considering the welfare of the animal, only the wow factor and for some the $ factor....by purposefully breeding it for its weaknesses..."

Since these animals are captive and not to be in the wild, what does it matter if they have color and/or pattern changes that would make them predated on in their natural environment? I agree that responsible breeders should be breeding for healthy animals, not sick weak ones.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave, your posts pretty much cover my opinions too.

In reality, the fact that these animals are so richly colored (and higher priced) actually helps them survive in "man's world" since things that cost more are better cared for generally IMO.
I feel it has a lot to do with the fact that people know much more about what they are working with before they are prepared to spend the kind of bucks it takes for... let's say a sunglow or sunset boa... they know what to expect and aren't just going to throw that little beauty down the toilet, or out the door. There may be many mutts that are turned loose, but that is where I think people go wrong... just breeding to breed, where money is everything and there is no pride or goals in what they do. That is what makes crossbreeding so touchy. The real enthusiasts in the boa community are breeding to perfect certain traits, and to lose the bad ones (visually, healthwise, or regarding attitude).... not to make them weaker or more defectual. That is why a lot of breeders like to 'outcross' their bloodlines to keep them strong and diverse. Besides, the threats that would haunt these snakes and make them weak in the wilds (because they are like a bright, red bulls-eye), don't exist for them in the world we put them in.

Apart from that little thought from my mental black hole, I agree with most of the posts, I love pure localities... they have their own beauty that is unmatched in its' own right and should be properly accounted for and documented when animals are bought/sold, but I love that people can take traits from one animal and intensify that facet with the qualities of another. We are doing it for specific reasons and you have to remember that nature has been doing it longer than us; just not for color!
Plus, I don't think I was bred for purity or my gentic qualities, I wasn't planned out by breeding my parents specifically... ( I am german, dutch, and who knows what else...) still, somebody loves me for who I am and thinks I am pretty great anyway! ;p I also think that we all have our own opinions, but shouldn't force them on others or judge them for theirs. So if you want to breed localities in the purest form attainable or hybridize boas for outstanding traits do it, just do it for the right reasons! In conclusion and in reading the first post, I do agree that if you preach the belief that pure is better and are sporting a morph hybrid like a sunglow.... you should be better educated on 'pure' but you aren't a hypocrite if you don't know that they aren't; but maybe you will change you tune if you do!

I have both, and I love them both! Hope I didn't step on any toes!
-----
Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
0.1 Anery poss. het snow (Missy)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
0.1 DH Sunglow (Bonnie)
1.0 Het. Anery (Guy)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.1 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal)
1.2 Hogg Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Apricot)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
0.1 Emerald Tree boa (Jade)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.3 BPs (MJ, Precious, Houdini)
1.1 Carpet Pythons (Jackson & Charlotte)
0.1 Blood python (Akaia)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)

What might have been a weakness in the wild has become strength in captivity. Natural or not, nature finds a way to survive, even in man’s world.

Just a thought.

I wish some of the "Big Guys" would chime in with some opinions, but I suppose this is to touchy a subject......Not that it matters but obviously my OPINION is that we are animals, part of nature, we intermingle and it is a healthy genetic thing.....we intermingle in an "unatural" way due to these traveling machines we have built. Is this "unnatural" I think not......nature created us, with the tools and mind to change the world around us.....so be it I say......

that said I understand the importance of keeping records and keeping a pure bloodline going. I agree with that.....but I feel like people's hearts are in the right place but they are not looking at the big picture, this isnt about money....that is irrelevent for this discussion really I think....this is more of an ethical question...a moral one.....should we play god? I think the answer has always been and always will be yes.....will that destroy things in the process....yes.....always has......but it will also create new and wonderful things as well....and the cycle will continue.....

NOW, the one thing that I havnt heard ANYONE address are Sunglows.....are these not hybrids? Not full blooded columbians as I understand......IF this is the case,, why are these so readily sold by everyone....
-----
Paul Harb

IMO, they are so readily sold by everyone....

because they are soooooooo pretty!!!!!

Sunglow

My most extreme salmon....

-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Those are some very nice animals.....and my mutts are my best snakes i think.....and the bloodlines I will be working with the most to refine.....

-----
Paul Harb

>>Those are some very nice animals.....and my mutts are my best snakes i think.....and the bloodlines I will be working with the most to refine.....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Paul Harb
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

With all due respect, I can't follow your argument. First
of all, isn't there a difference between propogating genetic mutations like albinism and mating sub-species?

Secondly, what seems to get lost in these long debates is that taxonomy can and does change all the time. What if one doesn't personally believe that boas from location A are a separate subspecies from location B boas? What if one doesn't even believe that there should be a "sub-species" classification?
Many times scientists can't even agree on what constitutes a *species*, let alone a sub-species. And even you qualified your otherwise absolute opinion with:

"Intergrades in the boid complex may occur at natures discretion; however this occurs in nature under specific sets of natural variables that I do not believe to be part of responsible captive management, under most circumstances."

So under what circumstances would it be okay???

Thirdly, if the public demand is for morphs, then how does that result in more wild caught specimens being taken?

My opinion - if you pay for a snake, you can do what you want with it, as long as you represent it honestly.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I just want to add as it pertains to my opinion here ..."It is in my opinion, a violation of ethical captive breeding principles to manipulate recessive genetic defects, to breed HYBRIDS, ARTIFICIAL/ DESIGNER CREATIONS, CROSSBREEDS or *INTERGRADES."...that by manipulating the recessive genetic defects to achieve a desired morph etc, the lack of responsibility comes into play because you are not considering the welfare of the animal, only the wow factor and for some the $ factor....by purposefully breeding it for its weaknesses...

Why did I choose to breed 50/50 Surinam/Columbian albinos?

In one simple word, 'RED'

I plan to do a number of morph intergrades with dwarf boas as well, for their smaller size.

I think as long as breeders are honest about the fact that their boas are crosses/intergrades, I don't see a problem with it...

I don't believe I am corrupting nature by breeding intergrades, the animal was already 'artificial' the day it's parents were bred in captivity, fed lab mice/rats, kept in plastic cages, with paper bedding, ceramic waterbowls with clean, chlorinated water, heated with electric current, protected from predation etc, etc,......

IMO, the most important issue with intergrades is honesty and full disclosure on the part of the breeder, and anyone down the line who may own/sell the animal. Period.
-----
Heather Martin
---------------------------

One more point - pure natural lines usually don't look like their wild counterparts after 3 or 4 generations of inbreeding. They more often than not look like captive bred morphs with abberrant patterns and colors. I'll bet their genetics have likewise evolved to produce too weak an animal to survive in the wild.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

... can produce a greater possibility of weak genes combining more often.

This is why some isolated communities of people have a greater possibility of having extra fingers or toes...

But here's (more of) my opinion. Any snake purchased by a person was purchased because they liked the way it LOOKED. People are therefore more likely to purchase animals with prejudice to its physical appearance.

So, if someone buys two freshly imported but unrelated locality boas, more than likely they're going to buy ones THEY LIKE BEST. Of course when these two breed, their offspring will look different than most wildcaught specimens of the same locality, because you have two "attractive" looking snakes mating together.

If a male supermodel and a female supermodel have kids, more than likely their children will be "more attractive" than a random human population sample of the same ethnic background.

Does that mean they are weaker? No. Do certain physical traits come to the forefront? Yes, that is exactly the purpose of line breeding.

In my opinion, if someone breeds snakes together (be it morph or locality), and sees a genetic DEFECT occur in the offspring, that is when it becomes morally reprehensible to continue the same breeding project. Some albinos, when bred together, can produce babies with eye problems (can be born with lack of eyes, or bulbous swollen eyes). Responsible breeders do not repeat pairings that produce DEFECTS like this.

I like boa morphs. They are genetic anomalies that are attractive to us. Yes, they would have a tendency to not survive in the wild, but I bet you a Chihuahua wouldn't, either. Most people tend to like RARE things. That's why gold is valuable.

It's not like we're cloning human embryos here, only breeding together compatible species, which could do so naturally if they encountered one another in the wild.

Even the argument that "Yeah, but they WOULDN'T EVER encounter each other in the wild" has holes in it... animals have spread across the globe in unlikely ways, due to storms or various other natural disasters or phenomena.

Honesty in the breeding background of any given snake is of utmost importance, but I have to laugh at the "Do we have a right to...?" In my opinion, no one will ever be able to answer that.

People have bred things together for thousands of years (take mules - usually sterile products of matings between donkeys and horses, to produce animals with the strengths of both, and some of the weaknesses of both). Right? Wrong? Who knows. Mules serve a purpose, which is why they are still produced.

Morphs and crosses will still be produced, as long as there is a market or interest in them.

Responsibility of a breeder, to me, lies in proper documentation of history of the animals they acquire and produce, and in the avoidance of producing animals with physical deformities.

I shy away from any sort of "authority" on snake breeding - to me, breeding clubs can seem to be a scheme to make some animals more valuable, and produce fees for an organization to run on. I understand about breed standardization, and that works for dog breeds that have been around for decades or centuries, but I know that I would not register my animals with or count on any reptile breeding registry to take root in the community.
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Lauren Madar - OphidiaGems.com | CageMakers
1.1 Ball Python, 1.0 Hog Island Boa, 1.1 Hypo BCI, 1.1 Surinam BCC, 1.1 Saharan Sand Boa

Plenty of Breeding Clubs in this buisness,well orginized ones at that.

>>I shy away from any sort of "authority" on snake breeding - to me, breeding clubs can seem to be a scheme to make some animals more valuable, and produce fees for an organization to run on. I understand about breed standardization, and that works for dog breeds that have been around for decades or centuries, but I know that I would not register my animals with or count on any reptile breeding registry to take root in the community.
>>-----
>>Lauren Madar - OphidiaGems.com | CageMakers
>>1.1 Ball Python, 1.0 Hog Island Boa, 1.1 Hypo BCI, 1.1 Surinam BCC, 1.1 Saharan Sand Boa
-----
TnK

Well darn .......
Tried to get the pot stirred early on but this topic has pretty well played out the same as every other attempt thats graced the pages of KS.

It seems to come up about every three years or so ?
Which pretty well fits the Boa novice bracket of 3-5 years.

Buy what you like,breed what you want !
Some day I may see a RattleheadedCopperMoccasin from your efforts !

-----
TnK

RattleheadedCopperMoccasin!!!

Unless of course you breed em backwards?
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>Buy what you like,breed what you want !
>>Some day I may see a RattleheadedCopperMoccasin from your efforts

If anyone ever produces such a morally reprehensible Frankenstein, I will have to get my Indigo snake to eat it...

Thanks,
Ed

just give a second thought to the concept . . . . .
They would make a movie off that critter !!

rotfl

>>>>Buy what you like,breed what you want !
>>>>Some day I may see a RattleheadedCopperMoccasin from your efforts
>>
>>If anyone ever produces such a morally reprehensible Frankenstein, I will have to get my Indigo snake to eat it...
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
-----
TnK

Actually, if you throw in some Indigo into the mix and make a
IndiRattleheadedCopperMoccigo... would it eat itself???

>>just give a second thought to the concept . . . . .
>>They would make a movie off that critter !!
>>
>>rotfl
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>Buy what you like,breed what you want !
>>>>>>Some day I may see a RattleheadedCopperMoccasin from your efforts
>>>>
>>>>If anyone ever produces such a morally reprehensible Frankenstein, I will have to get my Indigo snake to eat it...
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed
>>-----
>>TnK

By breeding various morphs of boas one is not breeding for genetic DEFECTS. This was mildly addressed in several posts I think. Hypomelanism and albinism occurred naturally as a MUTATION which could have proved advantageous depending on the environment. Obviously, albinism is not beneficial in the wild, but it does occur naturally. In fact, who's to say that many of these mutations would not have popped up in nature given time? Humans did not alter the genetic code of the parent of the first **insert morph here**. Once it occurred, they tried to recreate it. So I don't really see how that is bad. Plus, who's to say where nature would take the wild boas w/o human interference. You can't accurately predict that. There is cross-breeding in nature along locality borders too, so you can't be certain a wild caught snake is of pure decent either.

Hobbyists are far more concerned with locality than the scientists were that decided on the current taxanomical status of Boa constrictor. More work is needed to better understand their relationships and status and until it is done I think your question is basically "Is it ethical to breed a species to another member of its species from a different area (often defined by a political border)?" and also "Is it ethical to breed a SUBspecies to another indivudual of the same SUBspecies from a different area (often defined by a political border)?"

Remember that all of the snakes in question belong to a single species(B. c.) and as such cannot be considered hybrids no matter which male and female you breed. The breeding of two different subspecies (ie. B.c.c. x B.c.i) will result in intergrades. The result breeding a hogg island boa and a nicaraguan (B.c.i. x B.c.i.) will result in pure B.c.i.

Interesting discussion.

>> The breeding of two different subspecies (ie. B.c.c. x B.c.i) will result in intergrades. The result breeding a hogg island boa and a nicaraguan (B.c.i. x B.c.i.) will result in pure B.c.i.

That the hog isles should be reclassified as a seperate subspecies...
just throwing that out there.

I agree. The degrees of differentiation/classification among all Bc is arbitrary and very uneven.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hog Islands were never formally classified. Hobbyists gave them the Imperator label.
-----
http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

The imperitor subspecific classification is just a catch all, "none of the above" designation.
There is nothing but more room for further classification and fine tuning of that very large all-encompassing group.
I've noticed several localities have a narrower snout with greater lateral compression of the body. The narrower snout allows for better binocular forward vision and the lateral compression facillitates a better arboreal climbing function.
These two physical modifications parallel the Corallus tree boas in form and function.
Very different from a more ground dwelling locality/forms of imperitor.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Well put. Bci is divided by locality and not subspecifically.
The differences are very subtle and ill defined.
All I've ever said is lets get some [standardized]documentation on what we've got.
Changing topic somewhat --
These days, aren't most imported boas farmed and imported as captive born from their locality/country of origin? I think that's a good thing. Economic benefit and renewable resource, hopefully taking stress off wild populations.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

i think that some subs should not be intergrated because they are endangered and you can no longer export WC like Argentines or corn island boas. to intergrade boas like them should be a crime. suris and guyanas mixed with bcis kinda seems stupid to me, but i guess if you want to do it and as long as you don't try to sell the mutts as something their not. btw, the dog wolf thing, there are many types of wolves that are gone now and we will never see again. don't you think that keeping things pure would have stoped that?

For the dog/wolf thing -

Perhaps, if the reason the types of wolves you're talking about aren't around is because humans affected their habitat. There are lots of species that humans have hunted, or destroyed habitat of, resulting in the disappearance of the species... and absolutely, if few of that (sub)species exist, I agree that an effort should be made to breed those together to retain a pure line. HOWEVER, that is more the duty of ZOOs than that of private hobbyists, in my opinion.

Some hobbyists do pride themselves in having "pure" locality boas. Great! But don't knock other hobbyists that do not consider that as the highest ideal in their hobby. Hobbyists aren't (usually) vets or zookeepers or gamewardens.

Should it be a crime? No, that would turn a lot of people off to this hobby. Some people like "mixing and matching" - if I mix x with y, what will I get? Such curiousity in our nature results in some mighty fine inventions.
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Lauren Madar - OphidiaGems.com | CageMakers
1.1 Ball Python, 1.0 Hog Island Boa, 1.1 Hypo BCI, 1.1 Surinam BCC, 1.1 Saharan Sand Boa

i think that it is crazy for us to think that we are just in a hobby when you are talking about something that is on the endangerd list. maybe a permit to own them and a licens to breed would be a good idea. the zoos do not deal with just boas, so how do you think that they will have time to do this. joking about a problem saying that you should know that they are not pure by now is stuip. you are talking about an animal that may in a few years only be seen in captivity. try not to be so selfish and think about the folks into herps in the next few generations.

At this stage in the game it's pretty hard for anyone to say they've got pure anything. If you've got founder stock or F1 with legitimate documentation I'd say OK. Otherwise I doubt it.
Those that squawk most about pure this and pure that are new, nieve, and not qualified to speak on the subject. There are some exceptions. I know. The previous statement does not apply to those few.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You're absolutely right. No one can prove pure bloodlines unless they can prove a line back to freshly imported locale boas... and those who can are very few indeed for those locales that are no longer being imported.

As soon as you have one instance of "the previous owner told me that it was produced by XYZ, or from XYZ's line" without an actual receipt from one of the few breeders with founding stock, doubt about the history of the boa comes into play.
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Lauren Madar - OphidiaGems.com | CageMakers
1.1 Ball Python, 1.0 Hog Island Boa, 1.1 Hypo BCI, 1.1 Surinam BCC, 1.1 Saharan Sand Boa