Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
I found this picture today while searching Google for images of various milksnake subspecies... does anyone know who is breeding these? (and why???)

Thanks,
Nate
L.t.micropholis X L.t.andesiana on Webshots

As far as I know, that photo is of a natural intergrade. The subspecies andesiana and micropholis intergrade in mid elevation river valleys and foot hills of the Colombian Andes. It's suspected that the micropholis found in the hobby come from in or near such an intergrade zone. In short, that snake is probably a natural intergrade. The photo was provided by Scott Ballard. He knows his stuff.

-Cole

You are correct Cole, that picture is from my good friend Scott Ballard and he is one of most respected authorities on rare triangulum. The micropholis are of Popayan, Colombian locality, animals that Scott had received from me a few years ago. I had adults on breeding loan from Bill Lamar and produced a limited number of offspring from 2004 to 2006. Although, Scott, Jeff, Shannon and a few others are now working with these, the original adults are now in the hands of my friend Bill Lamoreaux up in Colorado.
Nathan

all of which is correct!,.......and yeah, Scott's a great guy in my book!

I agree, he does know a thing or two about those Central/South American Milks too!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I’m trying to work out a distinction that would cause people to have a strong negative reaction towards crosses and not intergrades? Seems to me the most often stated objection, that crosses could easily be bred to look like one of the parent forms and then, in theory, find their way into and contaminate pure lines doesn’t hold much water. Wouldn’t this be the case with all intermediates, even natural intergrades?

>>Hello,
>>I found this picture today while searching Google for images of various milksnake subspecies... does anyone know who is breeding these? (and why???)
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Nate
>>L.t.micropholis X L.t.andesiana on Webshots

Yes, I know the owner of that snake, and yes,....I know a couple others that are breeding the Popayan locale bloodline.
But don't quite understand the ..."WHY" part!!.....if you know anything about them at all, the answer to that is quite obvious!

WHY,......do you have some that are from a higher elevation???, if so,......I'll take ALL THAT YOU HAVE!!!..LOL

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I guess "why?" is a moot question, if it's a natural intergrade... the way the picture was labeled, it was unclear whether it was an intergrade or a hybrid. If I'd known the picture belonged to Scott Ballard, I wouldn't have even asked!

Nate, there is never any harm in asking

At the bottom of the photo I had labelled it as a Popayan, Colombia milksnake. This line is a naturally occuring intergrade between micropholis and andesiana, and siblings possess meristic characters that are intermediate between the two subspecies.

When I first read your post, I figured that you probably thought I may have taken a pure micropholis and pure andesiana, bred them together, and this was the result. No way!! I'm not a supporter of intentionally mixing the subspecies. I do have some naturally occuring (from nature) Latin American milk snake intergrades but would never artificially produce crosses of two different subspecies myself.

Thanks,
Scott