Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Several thousand posts down I mentioned that I let my BT use the whole room as his cage. He uses his basking area very dependably. There is a large 300 pound lizard/invert condo in there with him. He lives on a shelf six feet up that circles half the room. I had to experiment, but I designed a ladder that he can climb. He can't climb or break in to eat the other lizards, and I have the bottom 12 inches of the plywood habitat screened with contact paper so he can't peer in and distress the small iguanids and lacertas in there. In the upper story of the condo, they can look at the BT, but from five feet up. When the BT gets hungry, I hear him thumping around, I assume hunting among the objects that are the geography of the room. There are several large strong boxes in there on the floor.

Why do some people say this is a dumb arrangement. He gets exercise, and all the animals are safe. He is a lot less confined than most BT's. That has to be good for his mental health.

Why do some people say that if he hasn't torn up the room by now, he is sick or obese or cold. He is none of those. He finds new spots to curl up in. But he always gets back up to the basking area, so I have to conclude that his organic temperature regulating system is working well.

I can understand the revulsion at the idea of thermostatting his room, letting the house furnace heat his room the bathrooms. It's a new idea, and most people have a small, unrecognized, Lennonist streak. I want his room heated with natural gas from the existing whole-house furnace, and closely control the temperature of the room with a good set-back thermostat. Even though it gets cold (by my definition, because it never gets really cold here. Just light frost on roofs several times per winter) in certain areas of the house, I enjoy that because it's for the good of the BT and saves me money. Most people can't stand new ideas, because new ideas are not the norm. It takes guts to dispassionately critique a new way of doing things.

It finally just now occurred to me that I don't have to block any heat registers, because when the herp room rapidly (because it's small) climbs to 85F, the thermostat will simply turn off the furnace. I can also add big humidity now, controlled by a humidistat, and it will work better now than ever before. Nobody can accurately say that I do not know the desired humidity.

He loves to heat up, and then move over on the shelf where he can view my yard and sidewalk, and soak up the more horizontal winter sun. It isn't available in the summer, because the eaves shade the summer midday sun out. I keep that window clean just for him.

I had a burglar alarm installed to counter anyone's temptation to steal him. Now the savings on electricity will pay for the alarm.

To me, this new system seems like it's worth a try.

Now I'll see some more lashings. But I will report on my findings. I'll have a furnace service company come over and comment on it when it's up and running better than it is now.

Roger

I always thought that Lennon was the poster child for why drugs and guitar playing don't mix well so I am not sure what he has to do with heating monitors. Quite honestly other than the fact that your heating idea sounds about as confusing as Tesla's nutcracker what does it matter if it works. As far as monitors running loose in a room full of tanks...that's a disaster waiting to happen. I did not make up the two scenarios in my old post they REALLY happened. Monitors are smart(to a point) and being smart with animals is synonymous with getting into things. Do you use halogen lamps for heating your cages? If you do guess what happens if they get tipped over? Unlike standard incandesant bulbs halogens usually do not blow out when tipped over they just keep burning very very hot. As far as your monitor not getting into the other cages, just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean he can't. I once had a nile monitor I owned (for many years)break out of his cage and break into a tank with two baby beardies.$150 down the drain(probably more like $250 if you figure for inflation.) I also knew of a guy who had a monitor break out of it's cage and break in and eat a gila monster (how much did they go for in '93 or even today...ouch) However it is your house (I hope) I can only warn you of the hazzards if you want it wrecked burned down knock yourself out. Just remember I don't have room for you or your John Lennon records.

People tried the free-roaming reptile thing decades ago with large lizards (iguanas and monitors), tortoises, even large snakes. Now we know more about reptiles and the concept that it's not just two factors (space and heat). Monitors need to dig, it's not optional. This goes the same for most species of tortoises. You can't put dirt in a room without it rotting the floors out. That's why we create enclosures with durable materials (cattle-troughs, etc.) that don't rot. The humidity in a house is usually extremely low, even for some 'desert' species, and it gets even drier when you use air conditioning/heating. Combine the two factors (low hydration and inability to burrow and reach high humidities), and most species do not last very long. That's why people in the 70's (60's? I'm not sure on the dates), believed that many reptiles had much shorter lifespans than they actually do.

A cage is not only containment for the animal, it's containment for the resources the animal uses, which is more than just heat and space. If I had to make the choice between keeping my reptiles in large enclosures that are lacking in other areas, or smaller enclosures that hit all the marks (as close as captive care can), I would definately use a small enclosure.

If you are really dead set on this, no one will physically stop you, but I love how people come in with an idea that has been tried thousands of times and label it as a new idea. This idea (of heating a room and using it to house a reptile) is not new. It wasn't new 30-40 years ago. The reason you don't see it done anymore is because it failed miserably. You'll either ruin the house or the monitor. There are very few (and expensive) ways to make it work... and at that point you'd basically be building an enclosure into a room.

I would be interested in seeing pictures of the room. If you could post them I think that would help the debate.

My blackthroat has never dug more than a foot and this only happened maybe a handful of times. She has every option to dig tens of feet of tunnels and burrows, but she chooses not to. She stays in her man made, humid hides that I have provided.

So saying a monitor "has to" dig isn't always the case. But, then again, how would you know if you never give your animal a chance to?

All in all, nothing but time will tell who is doing what wrong, and what will happen. We all know how monitors are intelligent and curious, and get into everything. Does that honestly mean his will break in and eat everything else in the room? Would you bet your life on it?

So, unless you are Sylvia Brown, predictions of conclusions shouldn't be announced, in my opinion.

that's your choice. I'm just saying that it's been tried a thousand times without success.

Usually if a burrowing animal prefers to use a man-made 'humid-hide' as opposed to constructing its own, it means that the monitor does not find the soil suitable. I'm not saying that that is the case in your situation, as there is a likelyhood that you happened to estimate exactly what your monitor wanted out of a hidespot. I'm just saying it's a possibility. I know with my tortoises if I put a hiding spot in for them, they usually opt to dig beneath it instead. I feel this is mostly because only they know the exact criteria they need the hiding spot to meet (especially when it comes to dimensions...humans tend to make hiding spots too large).

I'm not the one that said that the monitor would break in to the other cages and eat the other animals. I don't keep black throats, so I can't personally vouch for that. However, others have said that it is likely that he will if he is healthy. What I was saying is that the house is not designed to put up with the amount of heat and humidity that a monitor requires. If the room isn't getting destroyed, then it is likely that the monitor's needs are not met. If you were to raise the humidity a little bit (by adding dirt in any area of the room) mold will start to accumulate, probably behind the walls. If it gets bad enough it can pose a health risk. This is even with a slight amount of humidity.

I remember someone... maybe FR? saying at one point that a human wouldn't be comfortable in a monitor enclosure...I think he might have even gone as far as saying a human wouldn't survive long in a correct monitor enclosure? Maybe someone can clarify. A house a designed to meet our needs, and they are vastly different from the needs of a large carnivorous african lizard.

No I do not support this. I actually agree with everyone's views on house roaming monitors. I was just pointing out that some debates here sound as rediculous as the topic, lol.

but yeah my BT has probably the best soil there is to burrow in.. If you know Florida soil, you know what i mean...

Just wasn't sure what side you were on
Anyway, I feel the most obvious problem is just that it's nearly impossible to meet a monitor's needs using a room without destroying the room. Having other reptiles in the room that the BT could possibly get at doesn't really become a problem if the BT isn't operating at full steam anyway

I just seem to see these threads come and go here. I remember one person started a thread about retrofitting a room for monitors, and he kept changing his approach until he finally realized that to make it work he had to build another room with separate floor, ceiling and walls inside of the pre-existing one to keep the monitor in (aka: a cage). That cracked me up a little. That had to have been a few years ago now though.

Blackthroats don't recognize typical florida soil as something to burrow in. They may utilize the soil type that Gopher tortoises use, but the typical fill dirt used for houses we live in has too much moisture content in the top layers. Gophers use the sandy top soil that transitions to a moist dirt as it gets deeper. Very few people have that to utilize, unless you have some property that hasn't been touched yet.

I have to agree. All my albigs burrow as much as they can. Thus why I'm adding another yard or two.

Cheers,
Chad

You couldn't have described her soil any better. It is the exact soil type that the gopher tortoises use. There are actually SEVERAL gopher tortoise burrows in the lot behind me that borders her enclosure. I actually started naming the tortoises and cut a little hole in my chain link so its easier for them to enter my yard and chow. They are always eating this one type of weed in the yard, not sure what it is, but now it doesnt need mowing, lol.

The soil in your yard is not what the Gophers are using. Unless you have a bunch of immature males around, they will burrow in just about anything because it's not permanent.

OK pal if you say so.

It ough to be a song. Have you ever wondered where all the wild albigs(wild) go. I mean every night and most of everyday? Do they sit out waiting to be consumed, or froze or cooked, or dehydrated?

Man it sure would be easy to collect monitors is they sat out all the times or under some piece of surface debris.

Its about this simple, if you have a HEALTHY albig and it does not dig. Your not giving it what it recognizes to dig in. Or worse, its not healthy enough to dig.

I going to get a little mean here(its about time) but would you sleep in a cold wet bed? if your house was full of fungus, would you still live in it? what if your house was too hot and so humid you could not stand it? what would you do? You see, you have standards for what you use as a home. If those are not met, you call up someone to fix it, or yell at your parents, or MOVE. What if you could not talk and had no parents or heater repair man, and you could not get out? what would you do, now go look at your monitor.
Well thats what your monitor is doing. It wants a burrow,(a bed, a home, its place of security and warmth. But IT SUCKS, so it picks the next choice, however bad that is.

That is what your forcing on your monitors. PERIOD. They cannot call you up and say, FIX THIS F'in thing. They cannot leave, you locked them in.

The sad part is, ITS YOU THATS DOING THAT and you will not listen to the animal. All you want to hear is what makes you feel good.

The dang truth is, I can keep an albig alive and apparently healthy, hanging from the ceiling in a plastic tube. If I keep the temps right, it will eat and crap and its heart will beat. The question is, is that living?

Would it be living if you HAD TO SLEEP in the middle of the road? I may be wrong, but people do not choose to sleep in the middle of the road and these monitors do not choose to sleep on the surface either.

One more little comment, hahahahahaha, how come, when you folks lose a monitor, you know, it gets out, they simply disappear, they find the place that its the hardest to get them out of. Ever wonder about that? Remember, in most cases, this is that wonderful pet that loves you, yet as soon as it gets out, it hides in the best hiding spot it can find. The reason is, Its afraid of you. With this in mind, I wonder about all those loving monitors. Cheers

I said it in my responce before to this guy, "been there, done that, moved on".
How long have you had you BT now?
I ask because Ive had a few over many many years now. I can tell you that eventually they dig in, they burrow, and they suprise you, why, you dont see the burrow until you look closer than most would. They dont place a sign that says "burrow here", they hide it very good. Just like ackies do, that burrow can go deep, and go for a long distance.
Now, Albigs dont burrow as much as say an ackie does, but they enjoy the option, and they make use of it when you least expect it.
The burrow is one aspect of what the dirt, and lack of circulated dry air does, it holds moisture in, it holds moisture inside the lizards body. The lizard fights a daily battle against dehydration, its a slow process in an improper environment, it may kill in months under higher temps, or a few years in lower temps. The process is faster with the natural convection produced by our houses and their design to stay dry.
The problem with those who comment about how a few man-made objects can function to replace a proper substrate or a burrow is that they dont have practical knowledge of what works for a monitor, they dont have the time or experience to say what works or doesnt work.
Just as I said before about your chainlink fence cage, its your choice to use what you want to. Its your monitor, and your money, but dont tell other that its perfectlky fine when you dont know if it is yourself. If you knew or understood what was wrong with the post and the conditions you would be responding to this guy with whats wrong, not saying that yours is fine without something.
Give it time, its your choice.

Here's a room for you. Yes it is expensive, yes it is not easy to maintain a suitable climate but it is doable and worth the effort in my opinon. to the right is a large cage on stilts with a near ton of dirt, yes I know not enough but the monitors make good use of it. There are various containers full of dirt for humidity purposes, not digging, notice my kid's sandbox, ha ha ha. The winter is a bugger as everything dries out FAST. Every other day the room is soaked down and by the end of the day after it is dry again. My electric bill is sky high and my water bill is double but I don't care it's fun and my monitors have lots of stuff to do.

It's do-able

Roger (the other Roger)

If so, what precautions have you taken against the harmful heat and water. I believe I did say that an enclosure such as yours was do-able, but at that point you've essentially built a large enclosure inside of a room.

The pics are intriguing...can you give us more info (how long you have had it, how you did it, how deep the substrate is, etc.).

Yes it is a room in my house. The walls are covered with osb plywood with 5 coats of marine grade polyurethane. The floor is industrial sheet linoleum. All corners are caulked with polyurethane caulk. Only the bottom four feet are covered in plywood. The plaster walls are exposed above the level of the plywood. The plaster is beginning to deterioiate and mold. It has been in use for a little over one year. There is about one foot of leaflitter on the floor and the 8'x4'x4' cage which is left open has 2 feet of dirt on one side and a kiddie pool for a water pan on the other. There are various logs in the room and shelves in the cage for climbing. They spend a good amount of time in burrows within the cage and lay on top of the cage quite often.

Would you do it again the same way?

If I were going to build an enclosure out of a room, I would leave space between the floor, the ceiling, and the walls so there would be less chance of damaging the room itself, but then it's really just a really big enclosure that barely fits in the room Another idea I had was if I had an unfinished basement to work with, build off of the cinder block walls with similar walls, install a door just big enough to fit through (about half the height of a regular door, to allow for substrate) and large window, and build the ceiling using ply with marine sealant (or possibly FRP-lined plywood). I'm just not quite sure how you would treat the cinder block structure to hold water (how do you see an in ground pool). It was just a thought I had if I ever decide to raise a couple of sulcata tortoises, since it's only warm here for a couple months per year.

It's interesting to see how you've built your room into an enclosure, but yours is a bit more talored to the monitor than simply adding heat and basking zones to a standard room.

Yeah, Roger, your room setup is different than the other Roger's. Yours is a cage on steroids, seemingly providing everything a monitor needs and not just a room with small area as a source of heat.

Not to insult your intelligence by any means, but I'd yank out that molded drywall quick before the mold gets into the woodwork frame of your house. Breathing mold spores can really affect some people's health in many ways, causing depression, lack of concentration, respiratory infections, and all kinds of other health problems. Some people aren't affected by it while others are.

Even with it just on the wall surface the airborne mold particles can creep into the rest of your house.

Take it easy!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Well, yes, I would do it entirely different, in fact it's funny you should mention the basement thing, ryan, because I am actually in the process of converting my basement into some large cages. The room has served it's purpose but with nearly a ton of dirt in there, the loadbearing capacity of the floor joists in there is maxed out. Then as you mentioned, HH there is the issue of the mold. My house was built in the mid twenties, so who knows what kind of nasties are lurking within these walls, but along with the mold there is the plaster disintegrating.
The house is built on a stone foundation, so all I plan on doing is repionting the joints between the stones. The previous owner poured new concrete down there and all I plan on doing to that is sealing it with concrete sealer. I have some large practically new windows I salvaged from a job I did rescently for the filthy rich, the mans wife did not like them, ha ha ha.
The ceiling will be covered with osb coated with marine varnish. The cages will be mostly glass, since I have a whole buttload of those windows and the remaining plywood walls will be insulated and covered with FRP.
The limitation in the amount of dirt is the real reason
for the move to the basement as I could much more easily weather and mold proof the rest inside of the room. Another major problem with the room is in the summer it gets pretty hot in there even with good ventilation. The pair of niles that inhabit the room were moving that ton of dirt form one end of the cage to the other in less than a day on the hotter days, an effort to find cooler temps. The temperatures in the basement are much more steady, they fluctuate much less.

When you do the basement cages make sure to post pics! I just did some reptilian home-improvements today. I rewired a couple of enclosures. One was just wiring a new incandescent fixture into the hood I made for my leopard gecko tank, but the other project was completely rewiring the stock tank I keep my russian tortoises in in the basement. I wired three incandescent fixtures around the enclosure together to hold some twist-in flourescents for some light, and then I wired a seperate one to mount the halogen heat lamp. I like it a lot, because before I just had three 10" dome lamps hanging in (obstructing a lot of view and collecting dust), and a tube flourescent fixture (doing the same thing). Now I've got a lot better view from above, and there's only two plugs to heat/light the whole thing.

Next up, I'm planning on building a heavy-duty rack (like a bunk bed) out of 4x4's and 2x6's so that I can put another stock tank above the one with the russians in it. The one above will be a lot less weight though, because it is going to hold a lone male redfooted tortoise (a non-digger) that had never reached the bottom of his current enclosure with only about 3" of mulch/dirt mixture.

I'm hoping to get some new power tools for christmas. If I get real lucky, maybe I'll get a some gift cards to buy some lumber.

Have a good one.

hahahahahahaha.

Heres the deal, a room offers nothing of interest to a monitor. Its no way or in no fashion anything thats familiar to it.

Just for fun, take a picture of the room, then find a picture of where albigs live. Your room most likely offers nothing that you would see in a picture of where they live. No dirt, no trees, nothing familiar, nothing it as a species, can recognise.

You mention the term, mental health, dude, what would your mental health be if nothing around you was something you recognise. Just space alien stuff that you have no idea about.

An example of what we do, we invented retes stacks, but what are they? they are actually pieces of wood stacked under the heat lamp that go from in the ground to temps at the maximum of what monitors use. Now If I took that pile of wood and put in in the sun, in an area where lizards occur, lizards move in and use them as homes(we do that all the time) Then if you placed them where monitors live, they too will move in and use them. Take ackies, if you took a bunch of wood and buried the bottom layers and had them stack of some awkward fashion, surely ackies would move in.

The reason is, ackies understand dirt, they burrow, they understand how to use AC(artificial cover) to thermoregulate. So the only thing new in our cages is a lite bulb. They do not read hardware catalogs so then do not know what a litebulb is. But they quickly learn it puts out lite and some heat. So they use it.

Now your room, I have traveled all over and some lizards will use the inside of houses as homes, mostly geckos and skinks, but I have never seen monitors pick and use an abandoned house. I saw them on the outside of old houses, I saw them living in the roof of one old house. I saw them burrow under the foundations of old houses and buildings. But not actually living in them.

I am not all that smart, but I imagine they do not use inside of houses, because there is nothing in there of use. I have seen lots of snakes in old houses.

So when people tell me they let their monitors run loose in a house, I have to wonder, what does the monitor want in a house? My only answer is, they want to get out of the house and go outside.

To make it simple, space is WORTHLESS, if its of no use to the animal envolved. Theres a difference between worthless space and space of use. In fact, where albigs live, they only pick a certain type of area to make their homes. Their homes almost always face a certain direction(in relation to the sun) Their homes always a definable PREDICTABLE temperature range, and their homes always have a definable perdictable range of humidity. If their homes fail to include that, they simply move somewhere that does. They often build their homes at the bottom of boulders(hence their old name "Rock monitors". They did so for some very real reasons.

So what does your room have and how does it relate to your albig?

I get the feeling you have NO IDEA what a healthy monitor is, OR DOES. A healthy albig is STRONG, and has attitude, it is always into something, always curious, always digging, climbing, and if you get in its way, it will knock you on your butt. Their eyes are bright and show curiousity and at times anger.

If you ever visited where albigs live, and how HOT it is, you would simply chuck your room idea, as if you kept your room that hot, your house would burn down.

What is very obvious is, you do not get what a monitor is, or how they live. No offense, but if you did, you would not keep on loose in a room. Sir, you do that FOR YOU and not for the animal. And all the reasons like room and space, are to reassure you and do nothing for the monitor.

So yes, when I hear about some naive person wanting to have a free roaming monitor loose in their house, it drives me nuts. How could folks be so dang dumb? I simply cannot answer that question, but I can tell you what monitors want, and its not your room. Cheers

Hi Roger!
I followed your earlier thread with an open mind but never posted anything. Like you, what I seem to remember most about it were the replies about how your BT would get into the other cages, but I do remember there were other comments on other apects of your idea. Some were mechanical amd some were husbandry.

I hope that you view me and this post as being fair-minded and impartial. Not harshly critical, but as caring critique. Please keep in mind that I've never owned a BT or kept any reptile outside of a typical enclosure.

I've been involved with reptile forums for about 3yrs now & have nearly 40yrs experience with them, mainly snakes, but the last 1 1/2yrs includes varanids. At least 2yrs. participation here in the monitor forum.

Within that 2yrs timeframe I've seen a lot of keepers come & go. The main "transients," so to speak, are the ones that buy savannah monitors or nile monitors (v. exanthematicus or v. niloticus, for those Latin lovers). The 2nd leading transients are the pro free-roamers.

Why don't these people last in these forums? Simply because their monitors don't last. Most are gone within a year's time. If any of them live to see 4 or 5yrs, it's nothing short of a miracle or the keeper finally changed their way of thinking.

Roger, in all honesty, from one monitor lover to another, and only because I care (like everyone else that's replied) your big room/big cage idea isn't anything new, like "-ryan-" said. It's the same idea, same principle, with a few new twists. And unfortunately the new twists aren't enough to turn things around to where they should be.

I'll not touch the "cage destroying" issue or proper temperature, humidity, and ventilation setup. I just want you to know for a fact that your idea has been tried, many times before, and has always failed.

If the conditions were right in the room for your BT to roam about, then the conditions within the other cages would not be right for those animals. If conditions are right on the inside of the other animal's cages, the room's conditions will not be right for your BT to roam at will.

Animals kept in subpar conditions most always look & act healthy until their dead. Looks good one minute, looks dead the next.

I just don't want to see you make the same mistakes. Even though there's a chance you might catch it before it costs the life of your monitor, you could still be out a decent sum of money & wasted time.

Please seriously consider what everyone's been saying. Yeah, maybe some things aren't presented with a drop of honey, and it is a bitter pill to swallow since we think we have a fantastic idea (been there, done that).

I hope this softens you up a bit. I would give ya a kiss, but, uh.........., I ain't that way. Hahahaha!!!

Hang in there!

Noone else but me.....
{img]http://www.happyhillbilly.com/Happy Hillbilly Avatar copy.gif[/img]
HappyHillbilly
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Please let your monitor continue roaming the house so I can have another person dump off their "tame" monitor to me because they can't understand why it has physical deformities(and likely internal problems). I love seeing monitors that can't climb or dig!

If you want your animal to have deformed toes, problems with its tail, suffer from long dehydration, poor sheds, etc. please let it roam your house.

I have pictures of monitors that were allowed to roam the house and they aren't pretty.

That is a picture of a female Argus/ Flavi cross that was likely fed twice a week and was allowed to go where she pleased. Her plywood "cage" had crumpled lawn bags as substrate. She was small, skinny, dehydrated, yet somehow carried eggs. They couldn't understand why....she had a warm "cage" and they kept their house quite warm(for human standards) throughout the year.

I also have a V. rudicollis whose previous owner let it wander and it developed severely deformed toes from being unable to dig, climb, or exercise its monitor tendencies in a semi-natural way. It can't climb, cannot grip, and teeters as it walks. It is a shame to see.

I also don't understand why people enjoy cleaning monitor feces off their floor or carpet....

Be of any use to any monitor or any reptile period it would rot, walls, etc would warp from moisture, and heat exposure.
How do I demonstrate this, Ive had a cage made of melamine, this is alot more durable than the floors and walls of your room. In a few years that cage started to fall apart, the plastic coated surface developed scratches from the monitor in it, not where I could see them, but in dark corners, under the dirt, etc. Next the moisture in that proper environment caused the melamine to swell, and fall apart. When I tossed the cage in the trash it just came apart in my hands.
So, if you subject drywall, furniture quality wood, floors, etc to those elements that the lizard needs to be healthy, to damp, then dry, then heat the material warps, it falls apart fast.
If your room is not being damaged by the environment your monitor lives in, the environment is wrong, it will dry out the lizard, and kill the lizard. The lizard is too cool, too slow to be a normal healthy albig. Try a proper cage, and environment for yourself, see what the lizard is capable of.
You dont have to believe me, or anyone else. But do as I was told to do years ago, try for yourself, and believe the results, believe the lizard.
This responce has been one of 100,000 "been there, done that, and moved on" type responces. Try not to learn like some of us have in the past, learn from our mistakes.