Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been quietly reading this forum for some time now and I have really enjoyed reading the posts and viewing the pictures. I have bred all kinds of Colubrids for well over ten years now and about two years ago, I switched my entire collection over to Boas. Well, they are great but I think I finally have come to the conclusion that I am an EGG man, LOL. Anyway, while I keep my boas, I wanted to get into something with some integrity involved(meaning locality). I can remember about 15 years ago when I first met Ken Siffert from Long Island NY and seeing all of his killer Gray Bands that he had. Anyway, I ended up purchasing this pair of adult Glass Mountain Alternas for my first pair. I have read the posts from December 3rd and after several phone conversations I truly believe that they are legit. I will hopefully build slowly and pick up a few more localities that I have had my eye on. I'd like to thank Mike Russo who I have known from the Long Island Herp Society for putting up with my many many questions. I also should thank Ken Siffert as well. These guys are gentleman(as you guys know)and they have always shared information. So heres a few pics right out of the box. The female first. Of the pair, she has the most red. Thanks for looking. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

the male. Thanks again. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

>>>>I have read the posts from December 3rd and after several phone conversations I truly believe that they are legit.

So tell us what you learned? Who caught the adults? Which Ranch was it on? Did you get all that info? Just curious
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Pretty cool!!! The male looks almost identical to the original wild-caught male. I noticed the male was drawing in some of the paper sack background color of the original wild caughts. This locality has been aroung for quite sometime. But they have all come about because of only the two wild-caught adults. Another one was caught on a cut near the main road about a year later if I remember right. However quite a distance away. Again these come from right near and extinct volcano or meteor crater. It is located on the map. It would be easy to locate on a map if someone really wants to know about where they are from. What hill or pile of rocks I do not know. But definitely the Glass Mtns. Ric Blair
P.S. At the time they were caught the person I got them from was staying in Fort Stockton or whatever town is located just north of there. I negotiated the sale of the adults over a period of two or three weeks. Dave Goddard and Jason Pike bought some of the first offspring.

The dude drove a black 4WD and lived in Lajitas for a while too? I'm trying to figure out who it was. Not Lee Frazier or Ray Duncan right?
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

does this Ranch sound familiar?

The 300,000-acre (1,214 km²) La Escalera Ranch is located 20 miles (32 km) south of Fort Stockton and is owned and operated by the Gerald Lyda family. The ranch extends over much of Pecos County and portions of Reeves, Brewster and Baylor Counties. Originally owned by California-based Elsinore Land & Cattle Company, the 100-year old ranch was acquired by Gerald Lyda of San Antonio, Texas and re-named La Escalera Ranch (Spanish for "The Ladder". It is known for its reputation herd of crossbred Angus cattle and its abundant wildlife. Located near the entrance to the ranch is Sierra Madera Mountain, which scientists say was created when a huge meteor struck the earth.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

sounds like excellent habitat....
copied from the web:

Sierra Madera Crater is a meteor crater in southwestern Pecos County, Texas. The central peak of the Sierra Madera Crater structure rises 793 feet above the surrounding desert. It is 13 km in diameter and the age is estimated to be less than 100 million years. Sierra Madera Crater is exposed to the surface.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Is that the place? It's not really part of the Glass Mtns. It was formed by meteor, and not the same process that formed the Glass. It's on the east side of the highway at the NE tip of the Glass foothills on the edge of the stockton plateau 10 miles or so south of Fort Stockton.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Nice looking pair Mike. They certainly look like they could be far west Texas alterna. If they are legit and I hope they are for your sake and everyone who eventually buys offspring from you, then you now own the rarest locality [Texas, that is]alterna around. Hueco's used to be until the last 2 years when at least 30 were found. Maybe Van Horn would be just as hard but I don't know of anyone with pairs from there. Good luck. BA

I purchased the pair from Jason Pike who purchased some of the first available offspring from Ric Blair. During this sale Jason has been very honest and patient with me. He has answered every question I had and then some. I appreciated his honesty. Thanks again Jason if you're reading this. Mike Panichi
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honesty is my only policy

>> If they are legit and I hope they are for your sake and everyone who eventually buys offspring from you, then you now own the rarest locality [Texas, that is]alterna around. Hueco's used to be until the last 2 years when at least 30 were found. Maybe Van Horn would be just as hard but I don't know of anyone with pairs from there. Good luck. BA

Is it that they are rare because of overall numbers or just unaccessable land?

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Steve W.

>> Is it that they are rare because of overall numbers or just unaccessable land?
>>
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>>Steve W.

I think a big factor is (or has been) collector bias.. There just are not as many hunters up there as other areas. Also while the habitat is vast the places accessable to the public are not.

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

where's the shafter animals?
The Eagles? Indios? Chinatis? Sierra Veijas? etc... Guads on the Texas side? I could keep going but is anyone breeding any of them?
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Is that kind of like the question who's buried in Grant's tomb? I think for the most part it probably is, but I could be wrong.

DB

I've got leps from the Eagles and Indios and Chinatis but have never seen alterna from there. Thats why I didn't even bring those up. I mentioned Van Horn because of only 2 I know of from there. I have a photo that Bob Mackin gave me of a Shafter alterna he found but thats the only one I know of. Norm probably put in over a hundred nights there and never saw one so it must not have a very good population if any at all. Lots of milk snakes though. Maybe they ate all the alterna!!! BA

Ok... Lance and I were planning to hit this locality this next year. We have been doing our homework. Now, if norm has hit it for 100 nights, then my question would be... Is he hitting it before fronts or low pressure systems go through?

Norm, can you chime in?

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

All I can tell you about Shafter after putting in 5 years is I would rather hunt Black Gap on a hot windless night.The traffic is brutal at best so DORs are something you must accept if you persue this area.The number of animals you can find on prime nights is rather high(a good night is 25-40 specimens)I have been there under every condition imaginable.I can drive west of Alpine and see the area easily.As far as species of snakes you have what you get on RR(except Alterna)GOOD LUCK if you should choose this mission.

plenty of alterna in all those places, but the road isn't the best place to find them, and they aren't easy on top of it. Gotta hit it right, and the weather has to cooperate. Norm _could_ find two the next time he tries. If someone does find one, more people will show up, and more will be found. Look at freaking New Mexico, thery find more there now than in the Huecos.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Who has them from New Mexico?

There's a question not soon to be answered.

DB

Is that I bet they are very neat looking animals. I have only seen 2 pics myself from several years ago. Neat locality from NM and you will never see them at any shows or offered in the classifieds. (unless sold as another local or generic)

Oh well...

Best Wishes,

SXO792

Sad that they were just waiting on one to get pickled so they could list it as protected. Not that they made an effort to study or understand them they were just waiting in the wind for one to be documented from the state so that nobody could collect them based on absolutely no scientific need or study.

It was without a doubt an agenda somebody had.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Amen to that Lance! I have a "hypothetical" question. What if a person does have some legitimate but illegally collected alterna from New Mexico but they themselves don't live in New Mexico. They breed and produce offspring from the wild caughts and sell them to other collectors not living in New Mexico. What could possibly happen to the people that didn't collect them????? These are not federally protected just state protected so are New Mexico wildlife officials going to track then down??????? No way!

If you knowingly purchase offspring of adults that were taken illegally and transported against the Lacey Act, you are also in violation of the Lacey Act and can be prosecuted.

You could unknowingly purchase babies and obtain a written statement from the seller stating that the adults were legally collected. However if the original seller was convicted of illegally taking the adults you could have your babies confiscated, although you would probably be safe from any criminal penalties.

Myself I really don't care all that much about New Mexico, Mexico or park animals. Well Mexican alterna could be neat because there is the possibility of some neat new traits. The New Mexico and park animals, IMHO are just too similar to localities we are already allowed to collect, for me to have any intrest in them. I would much rather have a legal Shafter, Chianati, Quitman Canyon or any number of rare, legal alternas than one that I will always have to look over my shoulder for.

Thats very true and I agree on one hand. On the other hand, you have a state agency that passes a "law" without doing alot of homework. If we were talking about California Condors or jaguars or black footed ferrets or San Francisco garter snakes then yes it would be damaging to the population. Alterna are really a pretty common resident in the Chihuahuan desert [even though I can't find them anymore!LOL] which of course extends quite a ways into New Mexico. Finding one in Brewster co. Texas or Eddy county New Mexico is only differentiated by man-made laws not nature's laws. Thats what I'm trying to convey anyway. BA

By and large the only threat to a species like alterna would be habitat destruction. Time and again those species in decline are in that position because of urban development.... A threat that alterna really to not feel at this time, and based on their vast range and choice of habitat.... not at all likely to happen any time soon.

They should not be on any list...
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

I agree, it's a stupid law and it takes away resources from things that really do need protection. Not to mention this country is supposed to be above creating unreasonable restrictions on it's citizens. I didn't mean to imply that the law was needed, only that it's not really tempting for me to break it. If alterna were totally banned I would be tempted to break the law, not mention pissed. I don't think any lampros deserve protection other than the Todos Santos Island King. When you think about all the lamrpos in all the states(zonata, Utah pyros, Georgia getula, etc.) it really is quite alot of money wasted to protect them all.
I would also add that I do believe very much in protecting park animals.

I was wondering the same thing? More than the Huecos? At least 30 from the Huecos the past 2 years. That would be alot to keep secret unless just one or two folks are finding them all. Of course, no one is going to hone up to finding any because of their protected status in the Land of Enchantment, so we may never know for sure. BA

NM G&F doesn't read this thread. It would give them great satisfaction in knowing that they are protecting NM alterna from "over collection". At least that is what they say is the biggest threat to the species.

They've (& the city of Albuquerque) definately screwed up the hobby here in NM. Of course I've got some blame to lay at the feet of a few in our hobby too.

I'll post more about this later.................
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

NM G&F can read this...

Alterna, can under no circumstances be over-collected as a species.

The have a vast range, most of which is not accessable to collectors to begin with, in fact the only thing that could be a threat would be habitat destruction... which is far from likely given the vast range they live in along with the habitat the prefer not being at the top of the urban development list.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Chris,
Unfortunately NM F&G isn't protecting alterna from anything. Only the habitat and their fossorial nature protect them from over collecting.

The only way alterna will come off the list in NM is when there is abundant data to support the fact that alterna are NOT endangered in NM. The secrecy behind all the alterna locals in NM does not help, it only hurts.

I found it amusing that they have a "recovery plan" for alterna in NM. hehe
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

All the glasses in NM are half empty...

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Unfortunately it looks like the "glass half empty" syndrome has struck in Texas too. See the various threads below...above...sideways.

We've got far to many politicians & other bureaucratic a$*holes trying to save the planet and everything else from...............humanity.

Here is a really interesting but long read about how well we've done "saving the planet" so far. Not to say we haven't done alot of good............we have....... but we've often learned the hard way and we have to many "left" leaning idiots calling the shots on stuff they have "0" (thats zero) expertise at.

Heres the link http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-complexity.html

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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

I wouldn't want to quote Crichton. He's been going around preaching that there's no such thing as anthropogenic climate change, citing out-dated and sometimes downright misleading scientific sources. He's a poor excuse for a scientist. I do like his books but I now refuse to buy them due to his playing into the current administration's desire to do nothing for the future. Sorry, that's my political rant for the week!

Any chance anyone could post a New Mexico alterna pic or two without saying who has them? Localities there? Just curious. I don't collect but am interested in the variability. --Henry W

I'm proud to quote Michael Crichton and he's in good company as most scientist (and most working in the field of climatology I might add) agree that anthropogenic climate change is far from fact. On the other hand left leaning bureaucrats & politicians love to quote the "sky is falling" theory of the day.

Apparently you didn't read the artical because of your bias??????

Also you might want to do some of your own homework as to NM alterna. Check out the the alterna page. SE Eddy county NM is the only know locale here. There are a few pics. There is a slight chance they may extend into Chavez county in the Guadalupe Mtns. Don't be lazy and rely on hearsay on everything. There are plenty of resources IF your willing to look.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

This just in today......

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

And this.........

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=84e9e44a-802a-23ad-
493a-b35d0842fed8

And this on Drudge....... TODAY..........

CLAIM: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed 'Man-Made Global Warming' in 2007...

Michael Crichtons point in the artical was about CRITICAL THINKING. I don't think running around like chicken little fits the mold. You might want to have a long conversation with an older person with a sharp wit and ask them about the "1930's" "dustbowl" "Oklahoma" "California" "drought" etc......

I'm not saying at all that there's no global warming. I am saying that mankind has very little to do with it and those who think we should/can "fix" it are arrogant and misguided.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Wow, really set off a nerve there! I don't think this is the forum to debate climate change so I won't go into the issues here. For those who are not aware, however, please DO your homework regarding Crichton and you will see what I was referring to. I think we can agree on one thing: critical thinking is required.

As to the Guadalupes, no need for the high-handed tone -- I am aware of alternas there. The previous posts did not specify WHERE in NM alternas were being found so I wondered if there were other locales. Peace please! Let's stick to alternas here... --Henry W.

My reason for posting the link to the original Michael Crichton artical was to show how scientist and politicians/bureacrats managed Yellowstone national park and what a disaster they created. Just like they are doing with ALTERNA in Texas & NM. We've got a bunch of know nothing bureacrats making laws because they.........CAN. They are trying to manage something very complex with a very simple and narrow minded agenda. The sky IS NOT falling.

I challenge all of you read this. Especially you Henry. Put aside your bias's for just enough time to read the artical.

Fear, Complexity, and Environmental Management, .....LINK

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-complexity.html
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

I have read State of Fear, unfortunately. It is what led me to research what Crichton has been preaching. I have also read the speech you keep citing. Yes, he is correct that the NPS has screwed up the management of Yellowstone. And I wholeheartedly agree with you that such mismanagement is what we are seeing in Texas.

Regarding Crichton, though, I have to respectfully disagree.
Crichton doesn't seem to realize that what the press prints about science isn't the same as what scientists are actually saying or doing. If you are a scientist, then you know what I am saying. I'm an archaeologist and the only way we get accurate news stories out to the public is if we write them and give them to reporters to copy from (that's not fair to all reporters -- I do not mean to demean the press here -- but quick stories for the morning paper do not allow careful reporting). And we all know that controversy sells. I AGREE with Crichton that the press is a problem in this country -- in fact, I couldn't agree more. But he takes things beyond that and actually believes that what the press says about science is fact and with that I definitely disagree.

The irony is that Crichton is IGNORING complexity and he is definitely ignoring science. See this as an example of what I am referring to:

http://www.uchttp://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/hansen_re-crichton.pdf

Anyone who has read State of Fear should see how Crichton is using the "data". Keep in mind that controversy sells. And it sells his books.

Can we just agree to disagree and now talk alternas? --Henry W.

and video somewhere too.

If you ever have a chance to post them or send separately, I'd love to see them. Thanks for bringing the thread back. --Henry W.

Unfortunately it looks like the "glass half empty" syndrome has struck in Texas too. See the various threads below...above...sideways.

I know that the recent legislation in TX has taken a turn for the worst:

Permits that do not clearly separate captive bred from wild caught animals in the "marketplace"

Hunting restrictions that targeted herpers that slipped in under the table by one singular politician and his agenda with TP&W.

And what is happening is a very scary trend that is creeping TX into line with some of the other more restrictive states. TX is doing this despite the "facts and figures" with a thin veil of it is stop the large scale commercial collector, but in truth it has little or no impact on them. I for one plan to make every effort I can to stop this creeping trend and undo some of the damage of last session.. And I am lucky enough in my efforts to have the help of many talented and determined people.

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Here, here, Lance! Bravo, encore! Any of you who aren't a part of the solution are part of the problem! Hey Chris, join HCU-TX anyway!We have just the place(s) to talk all this bs over by the light of a Q beam, lol! The spring outing will be a mind blower! Everybody join!

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Todd Hughes