Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was told by my vet that it is better to provide my monitor with UVB light. She gave me an example of Vietnamese leaf turtle that suffer from softshell in someone's care because of the lack of UVB light. She said that there is nothing in the care of these turtle that said to provide them with UVB light, but the turtle develop softshell after awhile. Then that person installed UVB flourescent light fixture about 12 inches away from the turtle and withing a week the shell started to firm up and within several weeks after that its shell began to harden again and was back to normal. She said Komodo dragons in captivity who aren't expose to UVB light do develop MBD. She said that's why zoos intall the UVB light for their Komodo dragon and expose them to real sunlight when the whether permits. I ask her, well, doesn't the tube decay over time and isn't it too weak to have any real benefits since the sun at the equator at noon time is much stronger than the UVB tube? She said, yes, that is true the real sun is stronger, especially at noon time at the equator, but she said that the lizard do not expose themselves directly to the sun all the time and at only certain time of the day when the UVB is not as strong. She gave me an example like in the morning where the UVB ray from the sun is weak she said lizards bask in the morning and sometime late during the day...not necessary at noon when the sun is at its strongest. She said, during the hottest part of the day most lizards would seek shelter, in the shade, and even in the shade there is UVB ray. It's true while some lizard do spend there time basking in the hottest part of the day, they do seek the shade to thermoregulate so they don't over heat. So she concluded that, yes, the UVB ray from the sun is stronger, but the lizards don't spend time out in the sun when the UVB is at their strongest, so the argument that the UVB light is not strong enough doesn't hold up, since the lizard don't spend all day in the sun, and even the sun worshipers like bearded dragons and uromastyxs don't stay out in the sun all the time when the ray is at its strogest. What do you think?

With all due respect, monitors are not turtles.

Now, I'm not trying to be a smarty, just wanting to point out that apples are not oranges, and can't be compared as such.

This forum is LOADED with threads debating this issue. Personally, I don't use UVB; not for my monitors or bearded dragons. However, I don't mean to try to encourage anyone to not use UVB as it can cover a multitude of sins (make up for some poor husbandry techniques).

The only FACT that I know of concerning the need for UVB with most reptiles is: There simply is not any solid scientific proof, evidence, pro or con.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

A have a slight problem with some of your statements. Mostly how they are stated. Mostly likely not with what you believe.

You said,
This forum is LOADED with threads debating this issue. Personally, I don't use UVB; not for my monitors or bearded dragons. However, I don't mean to try to encourage anyone to not use UVB as it can cover a multitude of sins (make up for some poor husbandry techniques).

The only FACT that I know of concerning the need for UVB with most reptiles is: There simply is not any solid scientific proof, evidence, pro or con.

In the first paragraph you said UV bulbs can cover a multitude of sins. UV bulbs do not cover anything, they simply mask the symtoms and allow other poor husbandry issues to finish off the reptiles.

In your second paragraph you stated that there is no solid scientific evidence. How wrong is that. If one is a believer of science, then the thousands of individuals and multitude of generations of many species of reptiles, RAISED and bred for decades WITHOUT UV BULBS, is scientific as it gets. And is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The problem becomes not about science. Because SCIENCE never states it has to be written in a scientific journal. Science never states that is has to be written in a hobby mag or on the internet. Science is a way of thinking and backed by methods and results, which has indeed proved without question that UV bulbs are not needed. Science is the explaination of results.

There is no question that UV bulbs are not needed, the continued repeated results clearly show that. What is a mystery is, why hasn't some scientists investigated why its not needed. You know, How all these generations upon generations of monitors and other reptiles succeeded so well without it. It appears this is where science falls flat on its face. Oh wait, I apologise, its not science that falls flat, its those folks that believe they are science. Science is not a person its a method. It appears reptile scientists are not using actual scientific methods and approaches.

To hit that a little harder, to be scientific, a author or researcher, must investigate both sides of a story, not just one that he believes in.

In a very simple use of scientific principle, if you can have great success with UV bulbs and without UV bulbs, then basic scientific principle dictates its not the UV part of the bulb. Hence you should look elsewhere for your answer.

The real problem is not about reptiles or bulbs, its more about basic problem solving. Many of these keepers do not have a clue how to solve a problem. They simply want to read something on a label that states it will solve a problem or prevent a problem. It appears they do not want to understand the problem or have the problem be their fault. AFter all, we keepers are suppose to be the smart ones.

In most cases, UV bulbs are what is called a bandaid cure. That is, they really do not cure anything, but it makes you feel better, because you made an effort.

This continued discussion clearly shows there is a great need for better erasers. The old poor information and current advertisements that make such claims, should be erased.

I believe most advertisements state, the use of this UV bulb AND proper husbandry will result in success. Clearly those adds could have also stated, the use of proper husbandry will result in success. In this case, the cutting edge and the most consistant success with varanids has been without the use of UV bulbs. So I ask, what does science have to do with it? Cheers

Hey Frank!
For the record, we have the same beliefs about UVB. As far as I'm concerned it has been proven that it's not needed for bearded dragons & varanids, at least. Maybe other animals as well but that's all that I can vouch for, as far as I've dug into it.

The problem you have with my statements twists & turns on word-meaning & perspective. I suppose it's a good idea to go ahead and address these things in case it leads to confusion on someone else's part.

"In the first paragraph you said UV bulbs can cover a multitude of sins. UV bulbs do not cover anything, they simply mask the symtoms..."

I could start this one out with a word play but it would be deceiving since it's not what I had in mind. (Cover - hide from sight. Mask - hide from sight) But like I said, that's not what I meant.

What I meant was what I said in parenthesis at the end of that first paragraph - "...(make up for some poor husbandry techniques)."

The turtle shell example mentioned earlier is one case of poor husbandry that apparently was remedied with the use of UVB. I don't know a thing about turtles so the Vet's argument may not hold water. I don't know if UVB took care of the problem or not, but the Vet claimed it did. I do believe though that if the keeper used good husbandry techniques, it wouldn't have happened to begin with.

A few other poor husbandry techniques that I believe UVB might can cover is supplementation (D3, at least) and poor lighting (low light level). The low light level is something most people never pick up on. They use a basking light and maybe a low-wattage incandescent in their setup. Throw in a UVB with all of it's brightness and it seems to increase activity. Why, of course, the animal couldn't see 3 inches in front of itself with the poor husbandry technique of low light levels. He's thought that's it's been cloudy, overcast, for the last 6 months and now all of the sudden the sun's a shinnin'. Who, or what, wouldn't perk up?

> > > "In your second paragraph you stated that there is no solid scientific evidence. How wrong is that. If one is a believer of science, then the thousands of individuals and multitude of generations of many species of reptiles, RAISED and bred for decades WITHOUT UV BULBS, is scientific as it gets. And is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt."

As far as I'm concerned, you're dead right, however, it would be inadmissible in a court of law, and without a doubt to the typical type of person that believes in UVB.

I could be wrong but I've always been under the impression that in order for something to be considered scientific evidence it had to be officially studied & well documented in a scientific method. This is probably more of an issue about perspective.

I've seen several scientific attempts to prove that UVB is needed, but they all failed to do so. I think you're onto something when you said, "What is a mystery is, why hasn't some scientists investigated why its not needed." Excellent point.

Let me put it this way; If I was out to try to prove that UVB was needed I'd be spending a lot of time at places like yours, that don't use UVB on their indoor varanids. I'd be looking for weak points or possible areas of health or behavior improvements and then see if I could make a varifiable difference using UVB.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Period, what they need is proper husbandry. Ive seen far too many reptiles kept under UV bulbs that were in horrible shape, then after they are simply set up properly they recover fast without the lights.
Those bulbs serve the same purpose that they have from the beginning, they are and always have been purely a money making scam to keep you spending $20-$50 every 3-6 months for a $1-$5 bulb. There is NO other reason for those bulbs at all. Its been proven a million times, also by some biologists with desert iguanas, in fact the lowest blood calcium levels were those exposed to the UV bulbs, below those without them, those kept in the dark, and those kept in sunlight. The real useful part of a bulbs for any reptile is the heat produced.

isn't the reason why the UVB flourescent light is so expensive is because of the special glass they use to allow the UVB ray to shine through? Regular glass doesn't allow the UVB to penatrate it. Example: the window glass doesn't allow for the UVB from the sun to penatrate when the sunglight is shining through it.

>>isn't the reason why the UVB flourescent light is so expensive is because of the special glass they use to allow the UVB ray to shine through? Regular glass doesn't allow the UVB to penatrate it. Example: the window glass doesn't allow for the UVB from the sun to penatrate when the sunglight is shining through it.

Try pricing bulbs that are the same or better in the fish dept of the local pet store. Same or better bulb is less for fish than herps. They are in it for the money.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Your missing the entire concept, It actually does not matter what the glass does, or what the bulb is made out of, or how expensive it is. The best results with monitors, IS WITHOUT UV bulbs.

As one with lots of experience, and success. I have no worries about calicum or bone disease, or any such matter. At this time I am raising, oh about fifty monitors. I do not worry how they will grow, or how well they will reproduce. Or if they are going to get sick. All I worry about is getting the time to keep them fed up.

Now, as a newbie, wouldn't that be GREAT if thats all you have to worry about with your one or two monitors. Its simply beyond my simple peabrain, why its so hard for beginers to TAKE CARE OF ONE MONITOR.

Really I do not mean to be offensive, but somehow I have to be. As how on earth can you come here for as long as you have, and still ask that UV question? You can easily see whos having success and who isn't.

I know its confusing when a vet says something, thats wrong. Your task is to ask the VET why he says such a thing. Most only say that because thats what they are told. Not from HAVING ACTUAL successful experience.

It you look at the day to day experiences of a reptile vet, its a wonder they don't all go balistic. As all they see on a day to day basis is FAILURE. They ONLY see everybodies failures. People to not take their successes to the Vet. Just failures.

In the end, you have to make a decision and DO it. I will say, its not the bulb that dictates a healthy monitor. ITS YOU. If you feel you have to rely on a bulb, then please do not keep living reptiles. Cheers

"If you feel you have to rely on a bulb, then please do not keep living reptiles. Cheers"

i don't think anybody could've said it better. i'll admit i have 3 cages with UV, but it's left over from before i knew any better. and i haven't removed them because i like the way the light looks and the way it lights up the cage. basically it looks pretty. when they go out i'm not replacing them. i guess what i'm trying to say is, all you speak is truth.

i also have a question, if you're willing to answer. when you feed your animals (monitors, chameleons, beardeds, anything) bugs, do you use a supplement to dust the bugs with? i personally use miner-all and since i was 11 (21 now), i've never had an animal with MBD or health issues that could be related to bad nutrition. i just want to know what you use, if anything.

If you can imagine, I have kept and successfully bred monitors in numbers since 1991. That means, I have had time and individuals to try all manner of husbandry.

What I have found is very very simple and its the same for all reptiles that I have ever kept. I learned this captive husbandry trick from all the various field studies I have done over the last four decades.

This is going to sound real funny, because is so simple and I should have learned this in the first week.

Reptiles spend their entire lifes, making choices of different temps, and related humidities(plural) All day, all night, and in all seasons, they're constantly picking a condition to suit their task at hand.

If captives are allowed to do this, you can feed them nails and sheetrock screws and they will do great. It really is about that simple. We have raised monitors on solely crickets with no suppliments what so ever. In fact, I raised one male ackies to 27 inches TL. in one year that way. Nothing but crickets(lots of them) and no suppliments.

I then raised groups of ackies that way. No problem. I added more. Well it seems once you reach a certain number of ackies, it begins to stress them, then you need suppliments to cover for the added stress.

We tested varied diets, which first started with what I saw ackies eat in nature, mostly made up of grasshoppers and lizards. Worked great. Switched them to crickets, superworms, and pinkie/fuzzies, that worked great too. The best results was with mostly crickets with fuzzie/pinkies. I also raised them on only pinkies, no problem. I still do not see problems, I do wonder where these problems are?

The odatria would grow up and reproduce from 4 months to 10 months of age. The medium monitors, from six months to a year. And large monitors from 9 months to 14 months or so. And in most cases, it did not matter what we fed them. With medium monitors, I mainly feed a rodent diet and NO SUPPLIMENTS. Remember, I have many many many generations of many species.

So now, I only feed crickets and mice. Of course, If I find a scorpion, I toss them in with the ackies as they go nuts of them. I am also sure when we put some outside, they eat whatever falls in the cages. I am sure that includes med. geckos and lots of scorpions. I can check to see what goes in the cages by keeping empty cages. They normally have lizards of several types, and scorpions, and tarantulas. The monitors do not touch blackwidows and tarantulas.

The monitors progress is not based on what I feed them or what suppliments I use. Its based directly on how attentive I am. If I feed them regularly, they grow like weeds, if I do not, they grow slower. Nothing to do with the exact food type or suppliments.

Now that all this is so old and so repeatitive, I try to dust crickets only(to cover my neglect), and I dust them once every few feedings. I dust with a mix of Reptcal and reptivite. I have used minerall and those folks are nice, but I somehow could not get them to send me their product in bulk and on time. Once They send me a five pound bag. A baggie of white powder in an unmarked box. hahahahahahahaha I almost arrested myself. Anyway, I started with RepCal and use it because of ease of purchase(bean farm)

It still comes down to this, IF They have temp choices, they do not need any of these commerical products, But if you do not give them the conditions they need to prosper, then you will need all manner of products ranging from, UV bulbs and suppliments, and antibiotics, and varied diets. Oh you know, what you see when you browse through a reptile mag. Cheers

> > > If captives are allowed to do this, you can feed them nails and sheetrock screws and they will do great.

Tune in next week when "Johnny Newcomer" posts an x-ray of his ackie and explains how he told his vet where he learned what to feed it.

Ahh, but within the same thread he can learn how a UVB bulb can take care of that problem, too.

Relax! Just a bit of humor, not a dig at anyone. I promise.

Ya'll have a great day!

HappyHillbilly

-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

hahaha, i could actually picture this happening too

o_O

thanks frank! another great post. i doubt you've wandered into the albig forum in the past couple days, but i recently purchased a new very young albig. it's eating so much food, it's ridiculous. yesterday i offered it 30 crickets in the morning and then 10 superworms at night, it ate everything.

in fact, today i was handling my ball python that's about 2.5 feet, and it tried going after it through the glass. i was on the opposite side of the room while handling the snake too! (the albig is only about 12-14" tuesday i'm building a "rete's stack" for the little guy. i don't know why i haven't picked up an albig before, in the 3 days i've had this creature, i've had more fun with it than i have with my panoptes hornii the entire time i've had it (about 5 years, going on 6).

How can you compare.

I actually perfer the gouldi group over Albigs and I have kept both thru many generations.

With that said, Argus, are the most high strung and are more of observation interest. That is, they can be a little hard to handle and much better to watch.

Of course babies of either are totally great. Cheers

yeah, there's hardly a comparison. the thing i mainly don't like about my argus is just that, handling it is a pain. the feeding response is so strong that he'll go after anything that moves, literally. i had him in an outdoor pen i use in the summer time for basking, and a leaf blew across his pen and he attacked it as if it were food. once he got to it, he kinda clawed at it and smelled around frantically almost acting confused. it was actually pretty funny.

i like albigs because they're handleable and almost every albig i've seen gets relatively docile after a while. but i tell you, i've never had a lizard more fearless than an argus.

Ive had albig hatchlings eat 50 crickets and still look for more, eat adult mice, or multiple day old quail. But then again my ackies started eating pinkies very young.

i would've given it more, but the bearded and the tegu needed to eat too, and i was running low. like i said, it took 10 supers later on that evening on top of that. then today, it took about 20 more super worms and another 40 crickets. it's a beast!

Why is it that according to an atricle in reptiles several yrs ago by Dr. Mader it was mentioned that sunlight filtered through glass windows is usless for reptiles because the glass filters out all but about 5% of the uvb. yet light from a florescent tube that puts out about 5% or so uvb is just fine. I haven't figured that one out yet. While you are at it why don't ask your vet if he knows where Geomyda spengleri comes from or if he knows how very little light actually reaches the forest floor in the forests of south-east asia (or elsewhere for that matter). I believe the figure is something like 2%. How much of that 2% is UVB? You know those fig trees you see growing at the local mall? You know the ones they use because not much else will grow in those low light levels of malls. They come the same region and they start out as eppiphytes in the tops of trees and work their way down (strangler figs) because their seeds won't germinate on the forrest floor because light levels are too low. I know some turtles can climb but I don't think they climb that high.

My vet knows they are from area where there are dense forest, but this particular turtle suffered from softshell, so she suggested to her client to install UVB fixture, and she told it worked wonder. The turtle is now still alive...at least 13 years old...and never had problem with softshell since. That is what she told me.

How about asking what was there to start with. Was there a normal bulb with equal heat output.

You see, so many try to keep reptiles at room temperature, and that is not what reptiles do. Then their told to add a UV bulb, its the heat thats of benefit, not the bulb.

Those of us who have used both and the sun, find out, there is not difference as long as the reptile has the choices it needs.

Really no offense again, but comparing a UV bulb to the sun is like comparing a match to a forest fire. They simply do not equal the sun, no litebulb does.

Whats needed is temp choices. Not a bulb.

Oh by the way, I hope your decision making process improves as I find it hard to believe you will compare a Spenglers with softshell, to hundreds of healthy growing prospering reproductive monitors, that do not use UV bulbs.

I do wish your monitors luck and please do use UV bulbs and take good care of your monitor. Just don't forget the "take good care part" as thats what is important. Cheers





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Check it out, I raised all their PARENTS from the egg with no UV bulbs, and a many hundreds of times more. But that turtle is very meaningful.

I think she was using the turtle as an example to show that it had problem absorbing calcium, but the light fixed the problem.

I have a few box turtles that are in my red-foot tortoise enclosure every so often I will find a baby or 2 or sometimes a clutch of eggs (they are not a serious breeding project just yard turtles) I have raised ALL the babies under plain old shoplights with regular florescent tubes that I get at wal-mart-the cheapest 40watt tubes I can find in fact. I feed them moistened reptomin chopped fruits and occasional dusted crickets. I have yet to have one have any shell problems. I believe Frank mentioned that he raised the very same species you mentioned without uv lights as well but you know what???It's your money blow it how you want but if it was me I would put the money into improving other aspects of my monitors cage because no matter how good you build it you can always build it better.

I am only going to beat this dead horse a little more as Frank and myself and everybody else here has told you that you DON'T need uv bulbs to keep monitors healthy. I will leave you with what I said in my first post about lighting. Go get one of the many books on growing pot and look up the info on lighting and you will learn that those grossly overpriced bulbs are nothing more than regular florescent tubes with a fancy paintjob inside and if you are going to get any bulbs that provide any uv you need to go to high pressure sodium or mercury vapor lights. If you want to heat and illuminate your monitor with a street light go ahead but you don't need to. I have heard that the feds like to stakeout the hydroponic stores that sell those type of bulbs so if you do use them...and you hear a knock at your front door at 3am...don't stand in front of it.

I know you don't believe in using UVB, but plant light is different than light use for reptiles and you can't substitute one for the other.

Again, you have NO experience, yet, you can make a statement that states, plant lites are different and you cannot substitite one for the other.

Yes you can, neither one is needed or required or helpful for reptiles. Proper successful longterm husbandry is what is required.

You should have your vet look at our posts. Then have her ask questions and have us post ACTUAL successful results, then see what she says. That would be fun. And I am sure she would enjoy seeing success in ways she did not know exsisted. Muchless exsisted for decades. Cheers

I've already mentioned to her about you breeding and raising monitor without the benefit of UVB light. She went on and said that it is true that some reptile can apparently utilized vitamin D3 from the food they eat like whole prey or supplement, but she said its never a bad to allow them to synthesize their own vitamin D3, too. Then she brought up the example of the turtle which was cured from softshell when the owner installed a UVB light fixture 12" away from it. She personally examined the turtle herself and was surprised by the quick recovery.

Actually it is which is what I am trying to tell you, If you are talking about those crappy overpriced florescent tubes that you find at box stores and such then yes they are a bit different than the crappy reptile uv tubes you find but not that much different as all they have is a slightly different color spectrum than plain florescent tubes. even the t-5 type tubes are not going to produce a lot of uv-b but they will give you a lot of light. You need to get in to mercury vapors and hps's and such before you get light in that type of spectrum. But the fact of the matter is you don't need it which is what EVERYBODY here is trying to tell you. Save the money you are going to blow on crappy lighting you don't need or on better more expensive lighting that you still don't need and put that money into building a better cage for your monitor.

That is what I'm trying to tell you. If you read my original reply to Shavar...I stated that the reason the UVB flourescent tube or anyother type of UVB lighting is so expensive is because they use special glass to allow the UVB ray produced in the tube to penatrate it.... Everyday flourescent lamps for human use are made of ordiary soda-lime glass which allows very little ultraviolet through. They are also coated inside with flourescent phophor powder, which convert the energy from ultraviolet light into visible light of a hue which depends upon its precise chemical makeup. Lamps designed to emit ultraviolet light must therefore have less phosphor powder--so that less of the ultraviolet is converted into visible light--and must be made of glass to allows ultraviolet light through. Transparent fused silica quartz glass allows transmission of ultraviolet light, and is used for this reason, but it is expensive.

I used to think the same things about lighting. When I first got into reptiles seriously and used to read all the magazines with the stuff on lighiting and used to think "I really know a lot about all this cool lighting stuff...I'm really smart, man..." and then our band at the time got a second guitarist who grew pot. He showed me this photocopied book he had amassed about lighting and I realized just how dumb I was on the subject and just how little the pet industry knows about lighting. I am telling you (for about the 5th or 6th time I think) Those tubes are junk!!!and what little light they produce is not enough uv to do anything anyway and as we all have been saying YOU DON'T NEED THEM!!! Like I said in the first place if you want to learn about lighting go get a boo k on growing pot. They have done the best research on the subject.

That's what I'm trying to tell you...plant lights don't have the UVB like reptile light or at least very little of it and you keeping bringing up growing pot, I don't know why.

Actually they do they put out about the same amount of uv as the reptile tubes in fact when all this uv crap started that is what people were buying for reptile lighting. the chameleon information network in fact used to sell them through their newsletter. Vita-light I believe but I can't remember as I haven't been a member of that organisation for years. The tubes are no good for uv whether they are for plants or for reptiles HOWEVER (IF YOU WOULD READ WHAT I AM TELLING YOU) the mercury vapor and high pressure sodium lights as well as a couple other types of lighting do produce signifigant amounts of uv light. They are however very expensive and YOU DON'T NEED THEM. I brinfg up the growing pot thing because the pot growers are at the forefront of indoor lighting technology. Due to ther nature of what they grow and the amount of profit involved they need the lighting technology and can afford it as it is expensive. I would bring up corn growers but they darn near can't make any money growing corn under free sunshine so there aren't going to be any indoor corn-growing operations any time soon. I don't think there will be any books titled "GROW YOUR OWN CORN INDOORS" any time soon either. But anyway I have to as I have to feed a bunch of day geckos that are thriving under cheap $2 a pair wal-mart florescent tubes because if I don't feed them they won't produce eggs as proper feeding is what gives you good egg production not fancy lighting, Oh yeah I also have to change water and feed a bunch of monitors that are thriving under non-uv-producing halogen floodlights (once again the cheapest I can find-at wal-mart-).later.

I know you're excited that you just read that article in the new issue of reptiles, but calm down for a second and listen to what people are trying to tell you. Keep in mind, there is a reason that Reptiles magazine has so many articles praising UVB lights. Take a look at their advertisers. If they started saying that UVB isn't needed, they would lose so much ad revenue the magazine might not exist anymore.

I keep tortoises (russians and a red foot, all kept indoors), and I had already gotten over the UVB hype when I got into them. My tortoises grow at a much faster rate than those that do use this kind of lighting, and with firm, un-pyramided shells. I don't supplement often, and I just feed a good mix of whatever's cheap (weeds, dark lettuces, some veggies/fruit, some meat, etc). I just don't get how people can put emphasis on things like nutrition and lighting while completely overlooking other, more important needs, such as safety and vast humidity/temperature gradients. I remember over the summer I brought a guy over to the house who used to breed many species of tortoise (his collection numbered over 80 at one time). He was shocked to see the way that I was keeping them, yet he told me not to change a thing. When I showed him how hot the surface temps under one of the basking lights in the russian tortoise trough was (it was 172f), he was again shocked, and kind of amused that when I moved the light, the tortoises followed it eagerly.

The problem is, you have to try new things to really understand how your reptiles work, and most people are afraid to leave the beaten (crappy) path because of magazines and caresheets that profess that "this is the way to keep them".

ITs called bundling, the mags bundle an articule and with assoiated products, being advertised on the same pages as the articule. Which is great.

Except these mags are forced for economic reasons to choose articules based on that value. The products they sell.

Of course not all articules are chosen that way, but many are and you cannot blame the mazazine. After all, they charge the advertisers and not the authors. Cheers

I never read the reptile magzine except for a couple of articles years back.

so it's a coincidence that you happen to have almost directly quoted an article just published this month?

No, I was reading it from UK UV quide on their website. Somebody refer me to it, but I wasn't aware that it was published in a magazine. I really don't read the mag. Most of the information I read are website recommended by vets and some reputable herpers.

Here is the link:
Link

Your story checks out, but I think you're still missing the point.

Whether you choose to ignore the information presented here or not, the fact is that you do not need UVB producing bulbs. It's been proven time after time with many different species. None of my reptiles have UVB producing bulbs, and MBD is the least of my worries. My tortoises have perfect shells, quicker growth rates than I have seen recorded (for their species), and reproduce like rabbits. They are kept indoors with no UVB producing lights, and some of them have been raised that way since hatchlings. Same with my bearded dragon, and a couple of uromastyx that I keep. They don't have UVB, and MBD is the least of the worries in my mind.

But what do I know, I didn't write an article that has no practical application.

That vets wrong, proper husbandry is needed, not uv bulbs.

As for her example, I kept Spenglers(VBBLT) for many years without any uv at all and the were fine. It appears, turtles require a temp range as well. Cheers

Granted there's no substitute for proper husbandry but what happens when you give them a little more?

> > > "...what happens when you give them a little more?"

A little more of what?

I'm somewhat skeptical of manmade sunshine. We already know that there are reports of issues with UVB bulbs affecting an animal's eyes. What we don't know are some of the internal affects. Does it damage the skin, internal organs, cause cancer, or any other long-term affects?

We simply do not know. The only research that I know of thus far has been done as efforst to prove it's benefits and/or need. No unbiased, all-objective research has been done, that I'm aware of.

Maybe take a look at the negative findings of tanning beds, sun lamps, for humans. I don't see anyone putting goggles on the monitors or bearded dragons when using UVB lighting. Nor any time limits for the use of the bulbs.

This is just merely my opinion, my beliefs; It's not the same as me telling you "not to use UVB."

The whole purpose of my first post in this thread was to state my beliefs but still be as FAIR as I can to both sides of the argument.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

What makes you think UV bulbs equals more? As I said, those with cutting edge RESULTS(me for instance), do not use or need UV bulbs. Our results have been and are at the top for nearly two decades. So, what indicates that adding UV bulbs is more?

If using UV bulbs was more, then don't you think all those that use them, would be more successful then I, or even somewhat successful? So why is it that only beginers believe in UV bulbs?

Oh I know, they do because of full page adds in some mag or some petshop tells them, just before they ring up the sale.

So please, you explain to me, how is it more?

My guess is most folks try rationalizing the extra expense. Which there is no need to do. If you want to use UV bulbs, use them. But they are NOT needed and do not ADD anything for the health of the monitor. If you like the way they look, then use them. Cheers