Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We all love animals right? Something to think about before buying an import. This is not every scenario but what I would consider and have heard to be the norm.

Bottom line is that the process of importing ball pythons into this country has been overlooked for years. How many tens of thousands of snakes are imported that die in transit? Its never been counted but from what I've heard from importers and some of the biggest breeders in the industry, often between one third and a half of the imported snakes die in transit or die shortly afterwards. If they do not die in transit they often die after being mistreated by owners because they are a normal male and there is not a market for males unless they are something special. So they are thrown into a tank full of hundreds of snakes like them that are never guaranteed food or water and often die. No matter how you put it this is cruel and unnecessary. Why is this OK? This is torture.

As we start to loose the Guerillas or Whales we all throw our hands up in the air and shout "Why are you killing suck a beautiful animals off?". This is exactly what we are in the process of doing. I say we because I know about this atrocity of importing because I have in the past purchased such animals. I am part of the problem and screaming out to all to help me think of what kind of solution we can come up with to stop killing such beautiful helpless animals for useless causes.

Do we have enough snakes in captivity or enough morphs to combine and see 50 new combos a year for ever? Yes. Stop this madness!

Think before you buy a import.

>>>>How many tens of thousands of snakes are imported that die in transit? Its never been counted but from what I've heard from importers and some of the biggest breeders in the industry, often between one third and a half of the imported snakes die in transit or die shortly afterwards. If they do not die in transit they often die after being mistreated by owners because they are a normal male and there is not a market for males unless they are something special. So they are thrown into a tank full of hundreds of snakes like them that are never guaranteed food or water and often die. No matter how you put it this is cruel and unnecessary. Why is this OK? This is torture.

You say tens of thousands but then refer to the fact it's never been counted? Sorry, I realize you have a good heart but passing laws using emotion as a basis is a horrible idea. It's been shown that the use is sustainable and due to habitat modification regius may actually be expanding it's range. (Gorzula population estimates) this study is referenced in Barker's book I may be in error on the spelling.

You want to hear another emotion based idea for regulations that you'd have a much easier time getting the general public to get behind?? How about just banning keeping Ball Pythons period? There's already precedence in some regions of the "land of the free" Normal ball pythons have been dropping in price for the last few years I have seen NICE captive bred and hatched animals selling for as little as $25.00. But guess what, The hobby is seeing a shift already toward collections that don't produce any normals, notice all the breeder normal females available? They are being replaced with animals that will produce hatchlings that bring more money for the breeder. This isn't a completely bad thing, if you do this for a living, it's a necessity these days. Education is a much better route in my opinion. Educate the potential snake buyer and the extra cost won't stop someone from buying the superior animal. The ones that it won't stop are the type of people who are buying a disposable pet anyway. Unfortunantly reptiles seem to attract this type of subhuman. Blanket regulation is always a bad idea, not to mention that if Ball Pythons aren't worth anything to the native people of the countries where they exist you can bet they won't be making ANY efforts to keep an eye on the resource. There's hundreds of examples of this....conservation through commercialization is a viable idea that WORKS. If those adult females suddenly don't serve the purpose of putting money in the pockets of a trapper from Ghana, Togo, etc...what do you think the value of a Ball's life will be over there then? There's good and bad with everything. Be extremely careful about things like this, PETA and HSUS would gladly help you with your cause to ban importation...then when that's completed they'll turn around and get the government to take YOUR animals away.

Just a few things to think about

I appreciate your isight as some of this I did not know. Maybe I didn't word it properly but nowhere did I say to have any law to stop importation. I would never suggest that. My intention of this post was to educate the average collector of the life of these imported snakes.

Right now ignorance is bliss to most people that go to the hundreds of snake shows that I have been to. They just see the price of $10 Ball python and assume this is the best route. They have no clue.

Call me an extremist if you like in reference to your PETA comment but the truth is that we are mistreating these animals for the prospect of the almighty dollar. Call me whatever you like but you cannot argue and did not address that this is not right. I don't think you can argue that.

I truly do appreciate your opinion and just thought it was worth a discussion. I am far from your typical extremist but try and educate myself as much as possible regarding anything to this nature. My hope is that we can find a better way of importing these animals but until then my feelings on the topic are as stated.

If it seemed I was lumping you in with animal rights extremists because you find substandard treatment of reptiles sickening that was certainly not my intent. I was in no way trying to discount your opinion on the matter. Having been in the business in many facets over the years I have firsthand experience with the late season imported babies....any one who calls themself a herper that can look through the crates at those malnourished, dehydrated, sorry reflections of the babies from just a few weeks before and not feel badly is a liar. Like I said, there's good and bad in everything. I just wanted to throw some different points of view out there is all. While I hate seeing dead snakes, I hate the thought of not being able to pursue my passion as well.

Happy holidays and good luck with all your projects

"Like I said, there's good and bad in everything."

I just don't know if this is a good enough answer to the problem. Basically it seems that we are justifying, as an industry, the easier way is better. Not the case here. The easier way is killing.

As a society what if we took this mentality with every issue, like a dog fighting case? Thank God people spoke out and I bet that you would support this and be glad someone spoke out.

"While I hate seeing dead snakes, I hate the thought of not being able to pursue my passion as well. "

Obviously, you don't hate it enough to stop or at the least say something. To me this says that your passion is only worth what money can be made. The well being of these animals comes second. This is backwards.

Basically this is not good enough, in my mind. Should I just ignore this and let this go? Maybe, but this is what is so great about "the land of the free", opinion. And if my voice is heard enough then maybe we can make this obvious problem improve.

This is why democracy is great. People actually have a voice.

Obviously, you don't hate it enough to stop or at the least say something. To me this says that your passion is only worth what money can be made. The well being of these animals comes second. This is backwards.

I hardly make enough money from my personal collection to afford to purchase food and new projects for my own enjoyment so your cateragorization of me is flat out wrong. I said I have been involved in the business in many facets starting back in 1992, when it became clear to me that to continue to make enough money to support my wife and I, I would have to move animals that I considered to be less than perfect and the health and well being of the animals themselves would come second to getting them out the door, I quit. I also on many occasions refused to sell animals that I felt didn't belong with the buyer, i.e. a hatchling African Rock Python for a 10 year old boy. I have literally hundreds of times steered people in the direction of CB animals on tables of people that sometimes I didn't even like when good friends of mine were selling farmed babies. Not to mention all the sick and injured animals I have taken in and cared for at my expense, because I didn't want to see them continue to languish. I still sell animals that I produce on occasion with a unconditional guarantee at that, so please don't make statements about me personally that you cannot back up with fact.

Only replying to a post that stated exactly what I said.

Again, getting away from the issue at hand. How can we fix this issue? Or at the least improve it?

1. Education of the snake buying public, and don't make blanket inaccurate statements...such as "imports are junk"...farmed babies are not, in alot of cases, unhealthy snakes. If you tell someone they are all junk, and they buy one anyway and have great luck, anything you say or have said will be discounted. State your opinion about the number of imports, the mortality, the poor conditions of some export/import facilities etc. Let them know that they condone the practices of the worst aspects of the business by buying the cheapest animals, people who sell farmed babies that they have gotten feeding and keep seperately (good farmed babies) are not the ones with 20 gallons full of them marked for $6.00 each.

2. If you want to do something yourself.....produce, produce, produce......breed normals, enjoy Ball Pythons for what they are in their natural beauty AS WELL as the rainbow of colors and variety of patterns the morphs provide. On a small scale, breed three or four really nice females to a super nice normal male...and sell the babies at a reasonable price, include a copy of the Ball Python manual and be available for your customers after the sale. Thats sort of experience will make certain that when thier friend sees thier snake and want's one of thier own, they will buy a CB&H animal because of the good experience they had doing so. To cut back on imports, you have to "steal" thier money....make importing multi-thousands a wash, or not as profitable by competition....in reality it's next to impossible to outcompete the farms because of the sheer numbers, but every one you produce and every buyer you make happy they spent the extra 20-30 dollars helps. That's another reason this consitutional republic is a great country.....competition in the private marketplace.

Thats what I was looking for. Very good solutions! Thanks!

I can't speak for everyone here, but I have to say, you are standing on a soap box in the wrong part of town. Once people have made it to this site, they want to learn more about the animals and care about them. I personally have stood in petshops and talked people out of buying a wild bp. I have talked them out of buying retics from cages that said "great pets, stays small". I often will direct people to these forums to get info. The ones that come will quickly learn why cbb is better then wc. However, the people who don't, or don't care, buy them from petshops. They want the animal "now". I have seen people come in and complain because the snake died when they put it in a 10 gallon tank with 2 100 watt lights above it and no hide, water dish, or substrate, because they were going to buy them later. These people are not on this site. Those people are the ones that need to be helped. If you want to stand on your soapbox, ask around until you find a petshop in the area who does sell cbb reptiles, (such as aquariums pet shop in winchester, va) and ask to have a seminar there explaining the good of cbb. Then get an ad in the newspaper, and hope that people will show up.
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1.0 100% het albino ball python (Junah)
0.1 normal Ball python (Alana)
01 50% het albino Retail Boa (Hitomi)

Although I respect your opinion I have to disagree with that statement. This forum is not full of people that only preach buying cb Ball Pythons.

If you took a poll and everyone answered honestly with a question of if they had purchased a wild caught or farmed baby in the last year the majority would answer yes. Again, just my opinion but I do respectfully disagree.

Do not mistaken this statement with not thinking Kingsnake is a positive influence to the industry. It is the best influence there is. That is why this is the only place that I would bring this topic up.

Know that I knew this would be received in a negative light and I went out on limb to post this topic but I do believe this forum is educated enough on the topic for the most part to come up with a reasonable resolution to this obvious mistreatment of the animals that we all love and some base our lives around.

actually if everyone that breeds ball pythons were to speak out against the importation of ball pythons by the thousands it would accomplish nothing. why is this you ask? well the majority of the people receiving these animals are pet dealers or wholesalers that sell to pet stores. These people's sole goal is to make as much money as possible out of each and every animal while investing as little money and time as possible. the average bp keeper and especially the large scale breeders aren't keeping hundreds or thousands of ch normals anymore so you are really preaching to the chior. Heck I would love for them to stop or drastically reduce the number of imported bps as that would make it to where I could make more than $25 off my normal animals that are completely healthy and feeding but I can't since I have to compete with sick, non-feeding animals in the petstores.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Josh - you hit on I think one of the most important parts $$$$ in the pet trade - if there were a guaranteed domestic source of hundreds of thousands of snakes at next to nothing prices - then that would be far superior to importing them - but who is going to dump that much money, time and energy into providing a solid source of normals all sizes for the pet trade with so little payback? I know Gourmet Rodent did for a while - not sure if they still do. But even with a CBB scenario - you're still looking at a huge amount of animals getting packed shipped and mistreated all the same - I don't see how this would be much of an improvement over importing.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

So as a whole, we can only come up with this as an answer? $$$$ is the reason that we decide it is OK to continue to kill.

This is wrong on so many levels!

Speaking out isn't necessarily a literal statement. "Speaking out" could and should be an action of not thinking of the money as a deciding factor that fuels the genocide of of this animal for the prospect of making a buck. In my statement it could resemble an action of not purchasing from those pet stores.

I have never seen this topic brought up. This is the voice and tool that I am using to try and make my cause that I have decide to walk into this lions den with.

All I ask is that we educate the people starting to get into this industry or the people that just don't know what the cost of of purchasing such animals is.

I forgot to mention the only reason I mentioned HSUS and PETA is because whenever there's an issue or potential legistlation regarding animals, as two of the most powerful lobbyist groups out there (by misleading the majority of the people who contribute financially BTW, but that's another matter) they seem to get involved even when they aren't invited. For example regarding current events, Who would support dog fighting? It's a terrible thing, and most people would applaud PETA's stance on the issue....how could you not? Right? But how many people realize that some of the leaders of PETA think OWNING a dog should be made illegal....so in supporting them against the obvious evil, you are also funding your enemy. Sorry to rant.

>>I forgot to mention the only reason I mentioned HSUS and PETA is because whenever there's an issue or potential legistlation regarding animals, as two of the most powerful lobbyist groups out there (by misleading the majority of the people who contribute financially BTW, but that's another matter) they seem to get involved even when they aren't invited. For example regarding current events, Who would support dog fighting? It's a terrible thing, and most people would applaud PETA's stance on the issue....how could you not? Right? But how many people realize that some of the leaders of PETA think OWNING a dog should be made illegal....so in supporting them against the obvious evil, you are also funding your enemy. Sorry to rant.

I'm glad you pointed that out.As imo this is precisely the way PETA plans to change ours rights,quietly..They do not see humans as having any rights to any animals for any purpose.
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Charles Glaspie

This is not a PETA post! I disagree with many PETA tactics as well. Stop ignoring

Lets not move away from this issue!

>>This is not a PETA post! I disagree with many PETA tactics as well. Stop ignoring
>>
>>Lets not move away from this issue!

Ignoring?...what,you want an answer for the problem at hand?...What's your big solution to the problem(,other than giving me an attitude for "ignoring the problem".)?
That is to say,there are alot of us breeding them that would like to see the imports stop...It isn't going to happen though.Not as long as the human species is so driven.
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Charles Glaspie

I hate to insult you with this statement but this attitude of we can't change this because its human driven is unacceptable. Remember it only takes a few money driven souls and an uneducated public to accomplish something like this.

I hate to break it to you, and almost feel sorry for you but there are good human being out there. We are not all driven by what will help us succeed in our money driven society. Some of us care about other living creatures enough to speak out when one species is helplessly being killed.

>>I hate to insult you with this statement but this attitude of we can't change this because its human driven is unacceptable. Remember it only takes a few money driven souls and an uneducated public to accomplish something like this.
>>
>>I hate to break it to you, and almost feel sorry for you but there are good human being out there. We are not all driven by what will help us succeed in our money driven society. Some of us care about other living creatures enough to speak out when one species is helplessly being killed.

Hey!...Just because i didn't have something to say about YOUR thread/topic,does not automatically mean i oppose you.

Don't assume i support the practice of importation.(You know what they say about assumtions.)

Feel sorry for yourself,for thinking that you know what is in everybodys hearts and minds...(Freakin spin doctor types..,You all want to stand tall in here.Even if it means talking down to someone else.)...Again what is YOUR solution.(This time,try to keep your words out of my mouth.)
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Charles Glaspie

Oh and I would never support a law that prohibits anyone from having a Ball python as a pet. I would fight this.

The main issue is the treatment of these animals for no reason except someone making money!

100% agreement. Wow, a rational, intelligent thinking snake keeper...that's very refreshing indeed.
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

refering to Horridus of course lol
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

I've been called alot over the years, rarely intelligent and never rational....thanks

If you are who I think you are, I'd never use those words to describe ya, lol. Hope you're having a good season.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I don't think so. If we didn't bring these animals in, they would be born into a life of living in termite mounds while they are continually infested with mites and face predatation.

I don't think importation is about $$$$$, but it is about $. By that I mean that the moajority of the pet traders that buy these things are looking to make a quick buck, not bucks. They can buy these animals for $3-$5 each and sell them for $25-$50 as opposed to buying from a breeder for $25 each and selling for $50-$75. Unless you are willing to breed normals and sell them for $3-$5 each, then you can't compete.

As far as the mortality rate goes. I challenge you to look at any living thing in this world and find something that doesn't have a mortality rate. Everything that lives, dies. That is fact and can't be disputed. Some things die sooner rather than later, and not one living thing is guaranteed to be alive from one second to the next. Baby ball pythons will die whether they are imported or captive bred. Ask any person on this forum and I bet they have had a captive born baby die. I think one person on here said they lost a baby pied and a baby albino in one week recently.

There is no stopping the importation of ball pythons. If you don't like it, don't support it. I am glad it happens to a certain extent because we wouldn't have morphs if it wasn't for importation.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

"I don't think so. If we didn't bring these animals in, they would be born into a life of living in termite mounds while they are continually infested with mites and face predatation.

I don't think importation is about $$$$$, but it is about $. By that I mean that the moajority of the pet traders that buy these things are looking to make a quick buck, not bucks. They can buy these animals for $3-$5 each and sell them for $25-$50 as opposed to buying from a breeder for $25 each and selling for $50-$75. Unless you are willing to breed normals and sell them for $3-$5 each, then you can't compete.

As far as the mortality rate goes. I challenge you to look at any living thing in this world and find something that doesn't have a mortality rate. Everything that lives, dies. That is fact and can't be disputed. Some things die sooner rather than later, and not one living thing is guaranteed to be alive from one second to the next. Baby ball pythons will die whether they are imported or captive bred. Ask any person on this forum and I bet they have had a captive born baby die. I think one person on here said they lost a baby pied and a baby albino in one week recently.

There is no stopping the importation of ball pythons. If you don't like it, don't support it. I am glad it happens to a certain extent because we wouldn't have morphs if it wasn't for importation."

I will use this as an example of what I am referring to. I will not generalize and say it is the majority but the above statement is unconscionable and inaccurate!

Everything that lives does die, you are right. But human beings have evolved to the top of the food chain and are eating up natural resources and anything else in its way on this planet like a plague. We are killing of species of animals and insects hundred at a time each day for personal gain. When will we realize that this is not only wrong but eventually we will impact our very delicate ecosystem to the point of no return.

Example, a honey bee lives and dies correct? With human influence we have indirectly influence the makeup of this vital part of "the process". They are dying off at such a rate that if not careful we will impact our environment with your attitude to the point where we ourselves will not survive.

Using this as an example, please do not misunderstand this statement to imply that we are killing off the ball pythons, just that we impact our surroundings when we start to influence their natural habitat.

Oh, and yes the disease and parasites that live in wild ball pythons is evident. But this is part of natures plan. Its called natural selection. Humans have taken it upon themselves to assist in natures roll in this. I'm sure the silver back guerrillas appreciate this as well as the many other close to extinct animals in this world due to human influence.

i agree with the no morph statement.Remember how the albino started back in the 90's and the yellowbelly among other snakes.I totally don't agree with ch but it has had many rewards that we can all cherish here today....

Until you have been to a flea market and seen 15-20 sick, starving adult WC ball pythons for sale in a 20-gallon tank (each selling for $20 a piece/no returns), you may not know exactly where snakeman333 is getting his estimate of the numbers of WC's that die each year.

There is a weekly flea market here in DFW that does this. The snakes are covered with giant ticks (probably internal parasites too), have no water, and they are kept in a bare glass tank with a large heat rock. Then they are sold in WIRE cages (look more like miniature rabbit cages) with astro-turf as bedding, no hiding spot, and guess what? A HEAT ROCK! We all know how notoriously difficult it is to get a WC ball to eat, well if they are difficult to feed under IDEAL conditions...imagine in these conditions. Even a CB ball python would have a poor chance of survival with no humidity and a heat rock. It's a pretty fair assumption that the majority of these flea market snakes will NEVER see a vet in their short lives, but their new owners will proudly continue to show them off to snake-phobic friends, even while the snake is slowly starving to death.

I've worked in a pet store for a couple years, and I get to talk to all these people who can't figure out why their ball python has not eaten once in the 7 months they've had it. I try to help them, but it's rare to come across one who is actually willing to spend money on a vet, or even $10 on a gerbil.

So whatever your opinion may be on the POLICY of WC imports, just keep in mind that the majority of WC ball pythons do not go to experienced breeders and educated keepers, they are sold as cheap, disposable pets.

-kasey
Boas,Balls,and Burms

Something to consider, there's already laws in place that prohibit keeping animals with no access to water, improper enclosures, etc. You might contact Texas Department of Agriculture or unfortunantly, our really good friends at Parks and Wildlife and have the offending persons ticketed. Paying the fines will erase the small profits they make off the animals that don't die. That's a third and very important thing that concerned people can do....if we self police the garbage in our hobby by reporting these people to the proper agencies (even though there's plenty of times it will seem futile) you could make a dent in the demand side of things. How many of the imported adult ball pythons are purchased by breeders or qualified re-sellers? I would say VERY few. Anyone with experience with WC adults is not going to take the time and effort to make these animals saleable, Except for the gravid females and the odd morph/potential morph. If you can make business difficult for these "flea market" pet shops (at least make it difficult for them to sell snakes) you can make a dent in the demand for the WC adults and perhaps when they can't sell them anymore in the numbers they once did, They will drop the numbers of adults they collect. I know this is a "pie in the sky" outlook but it is one thing you can do. Like the other options, you aren't likely to end importation of WC adults, but you do make a difference for the animals that are being mistreated. Trying to educate your average pet store employee or owner is very unlikely to be sucessful, but a stiff fine will make an impression....you can bet on that.

***Just so there's no misunderstanding, I don't think that the importation of adults should be prohibited. If done in a sustainable fashion based on sound population research, it should continue to be legal. I have some WC animals here that do very well. If you meet their needs they can make great captives. Keeping the more difficult to acclimate animals out of the hands of the worst retailers is the best plan....but since these offer the people who are in this business strictly for the money the highest profit margin. That's a tough road. And I don't mean to imply that ALL pet shops mistreat their animals. I have seen many excellent set ups and healthy animals in retail pet shops, one time even in a flea market, the problem is the bad ones are so bad they, often overshadow the guys out there that make a effort to do things right...and you can bet they will be the ones that make the newspapers and the TV media when they want to do a story on keeping reptiles as pets.

I should keep my mouth shut, but..
Honestly I'm sure not a single person here would AGREE with the circumstances under which these snakes are being shipped and housed. That much is certainly crystal clear.
So then I would assume the question you're asking is.. Can it be stopped?
I personally don't believe so.
Sure, you can breed your heart out & sell normal CB babies for as cheap as can be, convince as many people as you see to never purchase WC, you CAN make headway. You can speak out. You can get your face on the back of a Doritos bag or even land an appearance on Oprah. The fact of the matter is that this type of market (not just balls, but any non-native imported species) is much bigger than one person. It will outlive you, your children, and (if we're around that long) your children's children. How long have we fought poaching, only to have it continue relatively unchecked?
At any rate, I applaud your efforts, & I encourage you to continue to push for what you believe in. Good luck & godspeed.
Feel free to cuss me out now, however this will be all I have to say on the topic.

-Tami*

If we are not responsible as a whole then why should we support the importation of them? I don't believe it is a lost cause therefore I think there is still hope. If we don't speak up as the responsible portion of the industry then who will?

>>Bottom line is that the process of importing ball pythons into this country has been overlooked for years.

Please state your data. I will post mine here:

A) CITES permits are required for the importation of BP's. This requirement simply MUST have come from the "overlooking" of the importation of BP's

B) Fish and Wildlife inspects 100% of the shipments coming into the USA. This is overlooking.

C) CITES has carefully reviewed data from the wild and made quotas. http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2007/ExportQuotas2007.pdf This is also oversight.

Do you see that your statement above in patently untrue?

> How many tens of thousands of snakes are imported that die in transit?

Again, state your data source.

The real number is none to very few. I have imported thousands and I do not think we have had a single loss in transit. My data.

> Its never been counted but from what I've heard from importers and some of the biggest breeders in the industry, often between one third and a half of the imported snakes die in transit or die shortly afterwards.

This statement on its face is false. It is simply not happening. I have spoke to many other importers who provide data similar to mine.

> If they do not die in transit they often die after being mistreated by owners because they are a normal male and there is not a market for males unless they are something special.

Please state your data source. I have literally hundreds of pet keeping customers that absolutely LOVE their pet male BP.

> So they are thrown into a tank full of hundreds of snakes like them that are never guaranteed food or water and often die.

You went from the pet keeper with one male BP to mass housing of hundreds. This is simply a wild leap. Most major importers (ourselves included) house the babies in individual houses with access to water and weekly food. So I have to ask again, will you please state your data source?

>No matter how you put it this is cruel and unnecessary. Why is this OK? This is torture.

If it happened you'd be correct. The fact it does not happen tells otherwise.

>>
>>As we start to loose the Guerillas

I think it would be terrific to lose the guerillas, then our guys could come from from overseas. Perhaps it is gorillas, you had in mind!

> This is exactly what we are in the process of doing.

State your data source. We are not killing off wild pop's of BP's we are managing them in such a way the local folks can earn a living too. Hence the need for quotas put in place by CITES.

> I say we because I know about this atrocity of importing because I have in the past purchased such animals.

And because you bought a pet snake you know all about the importing business? And have talked to major importers who report wildly inaccurate data?

> I am part of the problem and screaming out to all to help me think of what kind of solution we can come up with to stop killing such beautiful helpless animals for useless causes.

What causes are useless? Who is killing snakes?

>>
>>Do we have enough snakes in captivity or enough morphs to combine and see 50 new combos a year for ever? Yes. Stop this madness!
>>
>>Think before you buy a import.

Think before you make wildly inaccurate statements. You just might have an audience with more information and experience than you.

The only madness making up data to support some new "cause".
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