Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering if anyone has seen the "reverse-stripe" Bluefields boas recently posted on Ron Tremper's site. Any thoughts?
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Saw them and was interested but it didn't go into anything about them being genetic or not. Plus the prices are about 3x what I paid for the regular Bluefields from him from the first batch.
Not sure if I want to take a chance on these.

Any pics of yours from the last group that came in?
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

I think they are believed to be genetic because the wild-caught female parent was also striped.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Smart move IMO !
Several different CA forms have been popping up with the
reverse stripe in the last two years.The Hondurans back in 02/03 were sold as Tigers.Then someone coined the Jaguar salespitch(dont recall the year?)Many claim it to be genetic ? but several reports claim otherwise.I dont see the justified 4 digit price on any of them,genetic or not,Farmed ssp no less.
We will attempt to prove it out next year with these Honduran's.

>>Saw them and was interested but it didn't go into anything about them being genetic or not. Plus the prices are about 3x what I paid for the regular Bluefields from him from the first batch.
>>Not sure if I want to take a chance on these.

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TnK

I think that, if a wild caught reverse-stripe female has a litter that consists entirely of reverse stripe babies (as is apparently the case here), then it is reasonable to conclude that the striping in this case is indeed genetic.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

You would be correct"In the case" but what is the answer to all the previous litter prior to and outside of that exceptional WC ?
Speaking with a few of the "more honest" that have had these type litters,all of them have stated their gestation temps were lower then previous litters which is believed to have played the major role.Repeating the process with unrelated pairs resulted in the same results.
The Hondurans I posted are products of the exact circumstances(low gestation temps).A litter was born last year from the same strain(source)that trace back to WC Imports,they also have varying amounts of striping.There has never been examples as such produced from this lineage.(cant speak for the others)

Its commonly known that BCI kept cooler during gestation periods will cause abberiences as well as other defects with-in litters,whether intentionally or by accident.

>>I think that, if a wild caught reverse-stripe female has a litter that consists entirely of reverse stripe babies (as is apparently the case here), then it is reasonable to conclude that the striping in this case is indeed genetic.
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>>Brad Chambers
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>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....
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TnK

My comments do not pertain to any but this one particular striped Bluefield's female, the parent of this litter. I agree that in the majority of previous cases striping has turned out to be temperature induced.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Which in all probablty was how "that" female came to be.Good chance another will turn up in the future,if it hasnt already been caught and being detained on a farm some where.

>>My comments do not pertain to any but this one particular striped Bluefield's female, the parent of this litter. I agree that in the majority of previous cases striping has turned out to be temperature induced.
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>>Brad Chambers
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>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....
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TnK

I firmly believe it is a near certainty that these Bluefields are genetic. The odds against a fully reverse striped female producing a litter of reverse striped without a genetic cause are very much against. She would have had to experience (in captivity) the same gestational substandard temperature regime as her parent in the wild before her. I don't buy it.

Of course, we won't know 100% until these offspring are bred in their turn.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Thats my concern with the "unproven genetics" with these cold brewed boa and the 4 digit price.If my Hondurans prove out then we'll have something to work with.I have my cards on the table with my animals I have nothing to gain in this business by blurring or fudging lineages.

At what percent of a litter does one legitimately claim "genetic"?
Then there is the debate between what is actually striped verses
strong aberrances.Stripe position,dorsal or lateral.

>>I firmly believe it is a near certainty that these Bluefields are genetic. The odds against a fully reverse striped female producing a litter of reverse striped without a genetic cause are very much against. She would have had to experience (in captivity) the same gestational substandard temperature regime as her parent in the wild before her. I don't buy it.
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>>Of course, we won't know 100% until these offspring are bred in their turn.
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>>Brad Chambers
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>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....
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TnK

I think you'll agree that Ron Tremper's name is above reproach in this hobby and industry (far more so than any of us posting back and forth here), so I fail to understand the skepticism.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I think a big part of the value of these animals is that they have an exact locality. All the boas in this line come from within a couple of miles of the town of Bluefields on the southern Atlantic Coast of Nicaragua. That counts for a lot in my book....
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I always thought that if a genetic mutation occurred during gestation, such as striping due to low temperatures, for instance, that mutation became permanent in that animal and was therefore carried on to all future generations, until again altered differently. Am I wrong?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yes, you are wrong. That was once, long ago, believed by some to be possible-it was called Lamarckian Evolution, after the 19th century biologist who first proposed it. It was basically the theory that characteristics acquired during an animal's lifetime could somehow become permanently encoded in its genes and carried on in future generations.

Unfortunately, this theory was long ago refuted. Striping caused by low gestation temperatures is most emphatically NOT transferred to future generations. Such a boa will produce only normal-appearing young (unless, of course, she too is subjected to low temperatures during gestation).
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

OK, I'll buy that, that temperature induced aberrations are not necessarily hereditary.
But, what about aberrations that ARE genetic mutations? Those don't remain with the blood line and continue to manifest themselves in future generations?
When genes are damaged they mutate. I know of nothing saying they revert back to a previous state of "normalcy".
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think it's more like because of low temps, the enzymes, amino acids, etc etc responsible for cell formation, do not do there full job during the formation of the various cells during gestation. Not that the gene is actually mutated, but put together differently.

I think! LOL
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

In those cases (rare) when a new anomaly pops up in an otherwise normal litter, from entirely normal parents, due to a random genetic mutation, it may prove inheritable and be passed along to future generation....

Usually this is not the case-when a genetic anomaly of pattern or color occurs in a litter from normal-appearing parents, then one or both parents were heterozygous carriers of that gene combo.....
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

They look very similar to a reverse stripe '06 female Honduran I recently got...

She appeared in a litter from two normal appearing Hondurans...

I am very interested as well to see if her striping/color is genetic...

To stay on topic, I did see the ad for the Bluefields striped boas...They are exceptional animals...as far as the pricetag, I guess it's up to the buyer to decide if they are worth it...personally if it were me and I had the extra cash I would grab them...others might not...
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Heather Martin
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If my guess is correct this one is a littermate to yours ?
I know of only one litter of Hondurans in 06 . . . . .

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TnK

Actually I was wondering if your reverse stripes might be related to mine...apparently there were three other reverse stripes in that litter...

Mine came from Joe Rollo...do we have siblings?
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Heather Martin
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I didnt know Joe had a litter in 06.
Mine all trace back to Hardings WC Imports,our stripes are 05's.
That female I posted was from Bob Hardings litter of 06.
I have never inquired as to the lineage of Joe's Hondurans ?
Could be Russo or Dyer lines,not certain if their from Harding??
Maybe he'll catch the thread and chime in ?

>>Actually I was wondering if your reverse stripes might be related to mine...apparently there were three other reverse stripes in that litter...
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>>Mine came from Joe Rollo...do we have siblings?
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>>Heather Martin
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TnK

Appear to be closer to Costa Rican's than actual Nic's. . . and geographically too. They are neat in that this locality all have the orange neck blotch just behind the heads. Some of them are absolutely beautiful snakes......too bad there's only 2 girls in the bunch. I jumped on one of the males and may nab another pair if I can swing it. There will likely not be anymore coming in for a loooooong time to come..

Jared H
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

male bluefields

female bluefields

I really like that Playa Hermosa Costa Rican Boa for sale on the classifieds. Saw a picture of the female, too. She was just as good in her own rite. What do you guys think? I've got a thing for Costa Ricans for some reason.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I love Costa RIcans too. I also saw that pair......I would love to ad her to my group

Found this this morning from one of my Costa Rican pair's

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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

We had a front blow through last night and I caught my big girl doing the dirty deed.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You might like these CR boas:

These two are Western CR. I need to check with the serpentarium in Grecia, CR that they came from for the exact locality. I purchased these two from Kevin Barnett, and they were from the FIRST shipment ever into the US from Costa Rica, that was 2004. I spoke with Vin Russo about exact locality and the only exact locality he knows for any Costa Ricans is Liberia, CR. Mine share MOST of the traits with the proven Liberia locality. However the only info I know for sure is Western. Kevin isn't into the hobby anymore, but last I spoke with him he wasn't sure of any further specifics. The CITES papers do not have any information except the source (the serpentarium Zoocriadero in Grecia) and the species name. If you aren't familiar with CITES, subspecies is NOT included. I spoke with the person advertising the "Playa Hermosa" boa, he said that it was also acquired from Kevin Barnett and that all he knows is what I know from Kevin. That information does NOT cover anything about the locale "Playa Hermosa". Again I will be checking with the owner of Zoocriadero in CR. He was the ONLY person to ever be given permission by the government of Costa Rica to collect wild boas to breed, and consequently export the CBB offspring. Boas from this source are also the origin of the Black Pearl morph in Germany.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

You guys are torturing me. Can't get enough of them.
There's a sucker born every minute and I am definately a sucker for Costa Ricans.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

World of Snakes in Alajuela, Costa Rica does export CB.
Don't know if they are allowed to collect any more stock for breeding or just use the animals they've already got for breeding.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I do not know for sure, but I think Alajuela is a region, state, or province and Grecia is the city.

The CITES specifically say "Zoocriadero World Snakes, in Grecia, Alajuela, Costa Rica".

The first picture on this link is the same locality as mine:
http://www.theworldofsnakes.com/?fuseAction=home.view&uid=15&showSaleInfo=no

My cousin has one from of the same type as the 3rd picture. I think also '04, but I'll have to check with him. His was also acquired through Kevin Barnett.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

My big female CA. Think she's Costa Rican. Used to think she might be Nic. She's not a Nic.

Her offspring -- 50% Costa Rican

50% Costa Rican aquired from a friend.

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Your female has similar coloring to this one:

That one IS a Nic.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

Are those crosses your babies (in the first pic in the tree)? If so, was it using that female you posted? They don't seem to have ANY Costa Rican traits. Look to be Colombian but picked up a little color from the female, if that is indeed the Dam. She looks like a cross to me.

Not really sure why anyone would breed a Costa Rican boa to a Peruvian. While there are many more CR boas in the US now that they have been imported since 2004, there aren't ENOUGH. Especially PURE ones. People need to keep them pure and get a colony of US CBB animals established. And crossing localities of CR boas is just as bad as crossing a CR with any other kind of boa. There are distinct geographic races of Costa Rican imperator, and they NEED to be kept pure. The phase I am working with is NOTHING like any other BCI I have ever encountered, in more ways than just color and pattern.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

I like the Bluefield's nics. I have some from the first, second, and now the third group that Ron has brought in. And personally only the second group resembles Costa Ricans. The first groupd is very dark, much like hondurans without the red belly. I am one of the few people who have actually seen these critters in person, whereas, a lot of people have made speculations based on pictures only.

And actually only the only two females and one male from this reverse striped group are priced over $1000. Which if you look at the prices of other unproven reverse stripe or stiped lines of boas, the prices are not that outrageous.

Amie

How are your Bluefield's doing? Are those from the first group anywhere near breeding size? Do you have any pics?
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Hi Brad,

My male from the first group is probably of breedable size now but my females are still way too small. It seems as if the females need more time to reach breedng size. I'm in no rush so they can take as much time as they need. For some reason, my male seems to have grown larger/faster than the other Bluefields nics. At least that's what I've gathered from the other Bluefield owners that I've been able to contact.

Amie

I'll have to work on that. I have pictures that are from the summer, no current ones. I just got a new computer and haven't loaded the camera's software.

Amie

This is Fireball, and 05 female nearly a year ago. She hasn't really grwn much bigger since.

And this is Velvet another 05 female, unfortunately I sold her.

The contrast is a little funky on that picture. Her's another one of Velvet.

This is Shadow, my male 05

And another picture of Shadow.

And Opal is one of the 06's that looks Costa Rican.

And her brother Harly. I sold him too.

I don't have the 07 here yet, but I'll pot pics after he arrives.

Amie

I'm not one to think you have to be in a hurry to grow up babies, and yours are turning out great so far! Love those nuchal spots. Of course, as always it's hard to catch the true appearance of a Bluefield's in a pic.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Nice boas. You'd be surprised with many of the CA locales. As '05s they might well be able to breed this season, next year for sure. And that's even if they don't grow another inch.

I had '04 66% het Bloods breed last year, and my dad has two Panamanian pairs and each female just ovulated, they are '05s.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

My male is almost twice a s big as the 05 female that I still have, so I'd like to see if she'll get a bit bigger before trying to breed. I wouldn't want him to snap her in half like a twig.

Amie