Reptile & Amphibian Forums

juvie - texas

emoryi

That's an unusual looking animal with red on its' head and no arrow point! Good find!
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Todd Hughes

HMMMMMM, weird but cool, here's what I usually see, that one is decidedly different.

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Todd Hughes

I would like to see that animal in hand! I could swear it may be more than it seems, is that one from Kingsville as well?
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Todd Hughes

SE edge of Kingsville

Looks more like some species of Pseudoelaphe than emoryi.

John

Nevermind I'm probably wrong, lol.

John

I take that back I think I'm right lol, Pseudoelaphe flavirufus ssp.?

John

If it is it would be something else, Kingsville is a loooong way outta range!....I think!
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Todd Hughes

Chrish? You have probably seen this one?
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Todd Hughes

Yeah that is why I doubted myself at first, I had not heard of any that far north. But taking a second look it did look like one. Your right, we need Chris lol.

John

I would really like to see that animal in the flesh....or at least some additional photographs of it. It really does look more like Pseudoelaphe flavirufus than it does a Southern Plains Rat Snake (Pantherophis emoryi meahllmorum) but that would be a far rea, far reach for it to have shown up in Kleberg County unless it esacaped or was released or arrived as an illegal immigrant from the south. I'm looking at a more likely possibility. I have seen a number of baby/hatchling Western Rat Snakes (Pantherophis obsoletus)...formerly known as Texas Rat Snakes ....that look almost identical to young Southern Plains Rat Snakes except that they are lacking the spearpoint on top of the head...and they do occur in Kleberg Co. I'm wondering if that is not perhaps we have here????? But of course there is still the matter of the reddish color on top of the head.

From looking that that one photograph and the locality, I am not really sure.....I'm just tossing out something that seems likely as a possibility.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

I hope you can get more pics of that animal, sounds as if you probably released it. I would offer to come to Kingsville to view the animal, I am in Corpus Christi. LOL, I was there just the other day. That is an unusual looking animal in my book, and I have not seen a T-rat in that county myself, but several in Nueces county close to the river.(Nueces) I would have to go with Gerold's second theory for now, a possiblt T-rat, albeit one I have never seen the likes of! Please contact me if the snake is still in hand!
Todd Hughes
361-876-4368
It would be good to confirm that snake any which way you slice it.
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Todd Hughes

maybe a cross between a South Plains and a T-rat? I could go for that, would be totally cool to be Pseudoelaphe, though I don't hold much hope of that. If I were to think of the cross, that is exactly what I think it could look like.

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Todd Hughes

wow, this snake stirred up some debate, and i am glad because i wasn't 100% sure myself, i concluded emoryi by range. Thanks for the input guys/gals.

>>maybe a cross between a South Plains and a T-rat? I could go for that, would be totally cool to be Pseudoelaphe, though I don't hold much hope of that. If I were to think of the cross, that is exactly what I think it could look like.
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>>Todd Hughes

Todd, I have thought of that as well, but I just don't know... It is an odd little critter, for sure, and I am on that list for wanting to see it in person too. The colors are all wrong for the emoryi (meahllmorum) of that area, and it is way too far from the range of Elaphe (Pseudelaphe) flavirufa, and the eyes are wrong for Pseudelaphe also (while a bit buggy, are not near buggy enough). The head shape, eye size and placement and blotch coloration all say obsoleta lindheimeri, to me. Ground color seems a little strange for a Lindheimer's, but not too aberrant. The dorsal blotch size and shape are the oddest thing about the snake, imho, which look more like emoryi meahllmorum, to me (I think someone else also said this). I don't think that a lindheimeri x meahllmorum hybrid is totally out of the question, but I think would be extremely rare in the wild.

-Toby Brock
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The Ratsnake Foundation

The other possibility that stays in the back of my mind is that perhaps it is an "accidential"/escapee. From all the posts it appears that a number of these same snakes appeared in a short time frame in and around that apartment complex and its parking lot. Perhaps it is not something native....but perhaps the offspring from an escaped snake. I wonder if there is a 'herper' living in that complex?

Outside of that possibility I'm still leaning toward an aberrant lindheimeri. Would still like to see that critter up close and personal.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

yep, if I could get a close locale, I would investigate. A stream nearby would hold a T-rat or ten!
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Todd Hughes

Okay, after google earting the area, I believe I am seeing where the holdout T-rats could be. Though most of the T-rats I find are associated with a swampy type habitat, good oak associations can/do hold decent pops. Where the cotton fields have taken over, probably less T-rats hold on. I think I see your area and there are both local water and oak habitat nearby. Maybe I will intensify the search, I would love to find T-rats in that area, Toby's snake from the Nueces basin is as close as I have seen them, a good 35 miles or so away. The habitat changes radically, but of course US 77 aloows for water and travel for many species.
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Todd Hughes

Todd,

I also used to get them pretty regularly at Salbatura County Park there at Banquete in the western part of Nueces County.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

>>Todd,
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>>I also used to get them pretty regularly at Salbatura County Park there at Banquete in the western part of Nueces County.
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>>Gerald Keown
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
>>www.southwesternherp.com

I have herped Sablatura Park in the past year, and that does seem like ideal habitat for lindheimeri, although I have not seen one yet. The only snakes I have seen in Sablatura are rough greens and ribbon snakes (Gulf Coast or arid land - not sure which).

-Toby
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The Ratsnake Foundation

>>yep, if I could get a close locale, I would investigate. A stream nearby would hold a T-rat or ten!
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>>Todd Hughes

Hey Todd, remember that Kingsville used to be my route at my previous job? I was thinking of the apartment complexes over there, and remembered that there is one located right next to a creek/drainage ditch which runs across 77. There is plenty of riparian type woodland in that area, and a good place to look for Texas rats imho.

-Toby
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The Ratsnake Foundation

After this chill, they will be down in burrows or in tree hollows I imagine, but you know how warm it gets sometimes. I might just get around to confirm them pretty soon!
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Todd Hughes

history of this snake: a relative sent me this pic from k-ville asking for an id. three of these snakes had showed up in his apartment within a weeks time, all babies. since the snakes were showing up during the fall season i j/ figured momma had laid her eggs in a wall or whatnot. shortly thereafter i took holiday down there and managed to find a roadkill within the apartment complex. not being native to the area i brushed up on the herps of southeast texas and found that the great plains rat and texas rat occur there. i understand your interest in the snake and a big part of herping is new county records, state records, or even country records for that matter, but i cant send ya banging on his door to look for snakes. I should have vouchered it but i can't leave snakes in jars at his place and i couldn't take it home on the plane. However, I will have him save any future specimens. If it is Pseudoelaphe, who knows how it got there. I have a few more pics that i can post but the pic i posted was the best shot in my opinion. Take care

Understood all the way around. If you feel compelled, please show the other pics, maybe we can glean a little more...
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Todd Hughes

I probably should not have said anything since I don't know these snakes that well. A Texas X Great plains sounds more likely. Sometimes I don't really think before making a post, lol. Sorry for any confusion.

John

It was and is as good a guess as any, don't doubt yourself, it does look like it could have been Pseudoelaphe. Since we don't have the snake, anyone's guess is as good as any!
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Todd Hughes