Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hate long strings so I started this new one on the same issue below. Locality

As most of you know I have been around this hobby for a lot of years and I admit I am pretty opinionated when it comes to certain subjects. So I am going to rant for a while on this one. With that said please indulge me for being so long winded.

When it comes to pits. and locale information. My feeble mind gives me quite a few mixed messages. One side says I should be radical in expounding my opinions and beliefs so as to perpetuate locale information and purity within those lines, the other side of that same feeble brain continues to ask “who died and made me pit guru number one” who is all knowing and right on a continuous basis. Neither side of that brain can give honest answers or positions that completely satisfy and express the importance that I feel should be placed on these animals I love dearly. I don’t want to appear to be an elitist and neither do I want to compromise the positions and ethics I have attempted to adhere to for so many years.

So with that said I have decided to attempt to satisfy both approaches with the following:

1. When it comes to locale information I have committed myself to learning as much as I can about any animal in our collection and to eliminate from our collection any animal I don’t have personal conviction as to purity and origin. Many times that is merely tracing it back to a person I respect as honest and open about the origins of his animals.

2. I strive on regular basis to explain why those beliefs are important to me to new folks entering the hobby and even some of the older hobbyist around that just don’t get “it”. Pointing out the subtle differences in the different locale animals and why I believe those differences exist in the first place. Things such as the darker colors of the northern bulls as versus the lighter colors of the southern animals etc.. Knowing full well there will be exceptions to any rule that we attempt to write down.

3. Encourage people to go to as many locales as they can of the animals they keep so as to understand the possible reasons for any perceived difference in that specific animal. A bull snake from any given locale is not nearly as impressive in a deli cup on a table at an expo, as it is in its natural environment. Seeing an animal in the wild does not require capture or retention and photos are a lot less trouble to keep. Especially when captive born animals are much better to keep and maintain. By doing so I believe they will better appreciate the locale information on any given animal. So far I have been successful in achieving this goal on over 95% of my collection and it has made a difference in my abilities as a keeper.

4. Refuse to buy from folks that produce hybrids and attempt to explain why when it can make a difference in their approach to the hobby. But at the same time realize that there have been a lot of beautiful designer snakes produced. And even though they will never be in my collection, they are important to others. Additionally commit myself to remembering those folks are fellow herper’s that some day will probably be needed to preserve our rights to keep our animals.

5. Realize that in most cases color and/or pattern morphs are not locale specific animals, but can be and should be kept as line pure as possible so as to ensure the outcome of any color or pattern project I undertake. This can only be ensured when you know how the morph or pattern variation was originally produced. One of my lifelong ambitions was to collect an albino anything. I haven’t yet and probably never will. The next best thing is to produce them in captivity from specific verifiable animals and to know the heritage of those color and/or pattern morphs.

6. Be as tolerant of others opinions as I can be, without compromising my beliefs and ethics. Also realizing that may mean “to agree to disagree” at times. Thereby ensuring that due respect is given to new ideas and approaches I may not have considered or understand. A perfect example is the Joe Laslow situation of brumating snakes to get them to breed. 25 years ago he was considered an idiot, now we all know he was right.

7. Understanding that to each keeper in this hobby the animals he keeps are the best in the world and that is how it should be. Further commit myself to giving respect to that belief and not be too critical of that persons beliefs. While at the same time fully explaining my position on any given animal. Bashing someone publicly or privately is never a fun place to be or to be put in.

8. Continue to try and repay the huge debt of education that I owe to the folks that took the time to try and explain things to a snot nosed inquisitive kid, so stupid that he required a lot of patience and effort. I hope to be worth the effort they put out!

With all that said, I hope the end result is some food for thought that ends up benefiting these wonderful animals we all keep. I currently am attempting to pass these ideas on to my son who recently returned to the hobby and is helping to take care of and rebuild our collection. I think he is beginning to understand, which bodes well for the continuation of the lines we have attempted to preserve over the years.

By the way aren't we all lucky to have this forum to dicuss things in, Thanks Jeff Barringer for providing us with Kingsnake.com!!!!!!

Good Luck,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Setting personal goals and establishing grounded ethics in what you are doing while mantaining an open mind is commendable.

Glad to hear you will freely share your knowledge and experiences in regards to locale specific herps for those that may not be as fortunate to explore all the various areas of their specific interest.

It is difficult to acquire some of this information from many people in this day and age. Take the previous thread in regards to Northern Pines. Why would anyone keep secrets of bloodlines? Does leave one to speculate.

Wouldn't you think if one is so proud to state keeping and breeding a specific locale they would find the enjoyment of sharing all the information they have gathared as well? To some, it appeared, just the question being asked itself was insult enough.

I'm glad you find enjoyment in the sharing of what you have learned through your past experiences.

I look forward to your response to my locale question I e-mailed to you concerning the Northern Pines you are working with as I have always been interested in locale specific lines of these majestic herps.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

:It is difficult to acquire some of this information from many people in this day and age. Take the previous thread in regards to Northern Pines. Why would anyone keep secrets of bloodlines? Does leave one to speculate.

Since I'd hate for you to utilize precious capacity to speculate on something as simple as my motives when there is actual stock to run down, let me shed a little light on your last insinuation. The reason the breeder with the NC pines name was not posted in the lower thread is respect for his desire to maintain a low profile. I'll grant that is ONLY my perception but better safe than sorry. If use of MY judgment offends such is life. If however you'd like to find out who the mistery breeder is do a search of this forum and its archives like I did. Subject mater should suffice; he posts here frequently enough to be found. As a hint he lives in the town the Andy Griffin Show was based on. That wont help you find him but it'll help you know you've found the right guy. Another tidbit for ya! I was just told that Bart Bruno (who's been a pit locality buff since Noah was a first mate) has maintained NC pines in the past and still might. If not, I'm sure he at least can put you onto a very hot trail. Actually Bart's likely the biggest tree in the woods here so you might want to bark in his direction first. (Just trying to keep with the "bubba" thing.)

The third little bit of info I'll share is a guy named Ricky Waters. He has been legally collecting northerns in South Carolina for years and should be able to put you in touch with those working with these lines or even get you some fresh caught stock. I personally I wouldn't remove another pair of pines from the wild because I wasn't cool with the locality "data" of the current captive population but then your priorities might be different.

WARNING:
ONLY PROSEED BEYOND THIS POINT IF YOU HAVE A SENCE OF HUMOR!

Actually I think I'm coming around on this locality thing. Lets just let the past achievements of the herpetocultural movement fall to the wayside and initiate a new wave of collecting to replace existing captive stocks. They do, after all, lack sufficient data and are therefor subject to be impure, crossed, hybridized abominations. With a digital camera, hand held GPS and third part witness anyone could document for prosperity the exact pattern and local of all new founder stock! We could implant subsequent captive-bred generations with ID chips and submit records to a central agency who would maintain an online relational data-base. One hundred years from now, locality enthusiasts using portable wireless hand net navigators, will be able to log onto a site and download 3D holographic images, extrapolated from the original pic files, of the great great great great great great great parents of locality stock before purchasing animals at a show!

Wait a minute I see a potential problem with this whole scenario. It might shed light on how much phenotypes change due to things like genetic drift associated with small founding populations and the tendency of breeders to select for characteristics they find attractive or interesting but have no bearing on the original environment from which the founder stock was removed. Some 21-century locality heretic might have the nerve to suggest that after X number of generations captivity becomes the locality and spark a whole new revolution. Stop which way is up?

Breath deep, gain control, THINK THINK………I have it!!! Perhaps……… we just might be able to devise some type of logarithmic virus to infect the pic files. The virus would anticipate the effects of unnatural selection overtime gradually altering the image so that none are the wiser and everyone would live happily ever after.

Gentlemen, I'm pretty much through here. I've had a little fun a few laughs felt I made my point and at the same time learned to be aware of a more fundamental view. One point made by Mr. Cherry is that in the end we'll all need to stick together to preserve our rights to enjoy these animals. Couldn't agree with that more than if I said it myself.

Excellent attitude! I read some posts and can feel the heat from the screen (usually on different forums though).
While I'm here, my two cents... I look at verifiable collection data as icing on the cake rather than a necessity. I agree that pure locale lineages are the most desirable, but if I see what are obviously pure bulls that have exceptional color for example, the lack of locale data would not necessarily keep me from buying them, but it would ABSOLUTELY keep me from selling them or their babies as locale specific animals. I also would not cross their genetic material into animals that I new were from a specific locale. They would just be pets and only ever advertised as such. Anyone that tries to pass off animals as something that they aren't deserves everyone's wrath, but non-intergrade "pure" subspecies that may be without specific data still make beautiful pets. Thanks.

Well said and informative.

Mike B

comments personally. A lot of fine people got insulted and believed that there integrity was questioned. I don't think that was the intent of Rich or KJ or myself or anyone. Unfortinatley, as everyone has admitted, the paper trail has not been maintained on many of the animals that should have been. KJ and Rich both admit that they could not find paper trails to satisfy their minds on legit "local" northern pines. That should not be an insult to anyone...it's just there standards, and they have that right, and thus do not have any northern pines. I on the other hand have over 25 and some I know where they came from, and others I think I know where they came from, and then some, I don't have clue, except they are outstanding looking animals. But by the same token, many on this forum have spent years building outstanding reputations both in there integrity and quality of animals. To msny that is acceptable proof and reliable inforamtion and to others it is not...but it is NOT casting doubt on these people and I think alot of folks took it as that. Like you John, my years of field expierence tells me that there are characteristics of animals that would "indicate" approximaley where they originated from, but as you stated, it is not always true. I think the truth is we all need each other and these folks who require that strength of proof for verification are not hurting the hobby but helping. In this hobby we sometimes measure with a micrometer, mark with a chalk and then cut with an ax! As Rich indicated, to "believe" something versus "knowing" something is a big difference. I think most of us have not considered that difference until these threads and we all will be the better for it!

Dan P.

For the record....

Not all snakes need to be (or necessarily SHOULD be locality animals, either. I own generics and locality animals. BUT, when I want locality, I only want what satisfies MY needs. When I don't want locality, I just verify that they are pure (and not hybrids).

I enjoyed reading your post, Dan...a lot. Thanks. I just wanted you to know I have lots of snakes just like you. Some I know where they came from, some I'm almost positive about (I trust, but I didn't collect myself), some I think I MIGHT know, but I don't sell them as localities, and some are just generic.

To each their own for each individual animal. My only concern is that ONLY definite locality animals get sold as such...but you already said that better than I could have!
KJ