Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Please understand what the forum is about. Its about discussion on our(all of our) experiences keeping monitors.

Its not about being right or wrong, as in most cases, its more about being wrong and wronger.

In this case, I believe its about reading monitors. You really should stop and think about That. I do have lots of experience doing that, being exposed to the numbers, and species and events for the time I have, does give me some insight. I do not require or expect you to do anything. If my suggestions help, then that is great, if not, for whatever reason, thats OK too.

Over the years I have learned that if monitors do not burrow(or any dang event), its because I did not provide them with the tools they understood. That is very accurate with substrate. You say, you provided mountain dirt, what is mountain dirt? How does that relate to what Savs recognize? If you are interested, you should find field descriptions of their native habitat. These always discribe the type of ground they are found on. I believe these are accurate. If you want to give your monitors something they recognize, then to start with that type of soil is highly recomended. Also, temps and humidity play an important roll. Most people here say, keep it moist. I find that to not work for me. Monitors do not seem to like moist or wet dirt. They along with most of our local reptiles, like(use) dry and 50% to 60% humidity.

I do understand, what you do, is not my problem or really your problem, but instead its the monitors problem.

What I question is this. If you saw a dog that continually runs into the patio window, you would do something about it. Would you not? But when you see your beloved Sav, doing decidedly abnormal behaviors and you think nothing of it. Why because it fits you?

One of the interesting things I have learned about monitors is they do not have deep seeded hated of humans, they simply love to be monitors. As long as we allow that, they are also happy to interact and play with us. I say that because many think its a one or the other type of thing, its not. This is a special case, of having your cake and eating it too. Allowing your monitors to be "monitors" will not and should not effect how they react to you. They will react to you, based on exactly you. Thanks for listening and thinking. F

There is a big differance between an animal injuring itself and fixing that problem than a monitor not digging/burrowing.
I don't have the technical knowledge to describe what the mountain dirt is. I do know that a lot of native wild life use it to burrow in. So I thought I would give it a go.
"But when you see your beloved Sav, doing decidedly abnormal behaviors and you think nothing of it. Why because it fits you?" Fits me or what I think he should do? Are you meaning that it fits the idea of what I think Gator is and therefore how he should live his life?
I guess maybe the reason I'm not understanding is A) I have a cold and my brain is fried & B) I look at it as this. I gave Gator the choices to dig, hide, room to run, fake plants to destroy, and so forth and so on, but he still make his own choice not dig or hide, and he shows no signs of discontent, unhappiness so to speak, or behavior changes. Gator loves to lay against his water tub. It's one of his favorite spots. I wondered if it was because the tub was so close to the wall or what so I started a small experiment. I moved his tub to many different spots inside his cage. No matter how far or how close it was from the wall he still laid next to his tub. His tub is built into the ground so I always had to dig it out position it and put the dirt back around it. The dirts was never moved when it was closest to the wall nor was it disturbed. It looked really comical bacause here is the monitor laying half way on the tub and half way in it but not once has he dug around it, under it or near it. Abnormal? Maybe, maybe not.

Where was I going with all this? Hhhmmmmm. Damn brain cloud again.

I provided what was said was needed with once exception, not enough dirt. Wrong dirt type? That I'm not so sure of. Two of my other monitors are on the exact same dirt and they dig and burrow like crazy. They're both Savs. I guess my only question is why it matters so much? That is the part I can't comprehend. He has a lot of choices available to him and his only behavior that is truely abnormal is the nondigging/burrowing. It matters because it's abnmormal to you? Please explain to me what the harm is if all other choices were given, including being put on dirt only eight inches deep.
Why are you so hard on me about my husbandry for my monitors? I'm not saying your attacking me or anything like that. It just seems that your a little tougher on me then others.
My expierences sure as hell doesn't cover 30 yrs. It barely covers eight. I've made many mistakes and I'm sure there are many more to come. I'm sorry this is so long and if I'm repeating myself but I'm trying to relay where I'm coming from. My brain is not about me today or the last three. Damn colds!
Christine

It is normal for monitors to have homes. To be successful in nature, they must first find a home. A home is the base from which they work. They may have a series of homes.

What are they without a home???? it does happen, but those animals are lost. Its not normal. Monitors do not lay about in nature, the ones that do are either dead or soon to be dead.

If I see one of my monitors laying out and not in its normal home, I check to see if its alive. If i found a monitor laying out at night in nature, the first thing i would think of is, its dead.

If i would to guess why a monitor would lay out at night, my guess would be, it did not care to live.

While we are playing with this, what would you be without a home? Why do people make campsites when out in the woods? What would you do, if there were no laws against murder? for monitors, there is no law, at all. A home is the base of their life, for many many reasons. Savs include burrows as their home. F

Ok. Now I'm starting to get it. A little.

Since we are "playing with this" as you say, are all your monitors captive bred animals? I'm only asking because I wonder if there is a difference in temperment and behaviors betweem a C/B and a W/C?? I have heard and read that they do, but might as well ask the person who has bred many ah monitor in his day and I'm sure has owned a few W/Cs.

Secondly. You mentioned monitors "laying about", what are you meaning by that? All my monitors are active and are always on the move but I'm sure they take their times to rest. Are you meaning never moving, or just moving very little?

Third. You didn't answer my question. Why are you so hard on me? I'm sure in all my yammering that was easy to miss but I really want to know.
Thanks, Christine :>~

I do have to break in here on this one... My Bosc was provided with almost a foot of topsoil dried out to dig in... It took him a while to decide to dig himself out a burrow in it.. and then he found his favorite place to be.. wasn't in the burrow... it was curled up in the cleft between the side of his enclosure and his water dish. It was a narrow space, much tighter than his burrow could be and he slept there every night. He'd take to his burrow in the mornings... but only for a short time before he'd be out prowling for food. After 2 weeks of this.. I reduced the amount of dirt in the enclosure and turned the thermostat down on the UTH I have...To get the temps right. He's healthy.. eating quite well and comes out alot to prowl his enclosure... His only abnormal behavior for a Bosc is his lack of enthusiasm when it comes to digging. I'm of the mind that each animal is an individual.. while the common behavior may be one thing.. its definately a stereotype of what most Bosc monitors should be.. however as an individual you may see a lot of varied behavior... Each animal, like each person is different and will have its preferences. Of course, I don't have near the experience with monitors that most people on here do.. but I do have experience with alot of other animals...and the one thing I've found in all of it.. is that no animal can be predicted based on what some other animal, even of the same species, has done.

Are you sure you are listening to what the monitor is saying and not what you want to hear?

While dirt is often listed as a good substrate for monitors, it does not mean ALL dirt is good.

Keep in mind, some of us have spent many days searching, sifting, digging up new dirt, to only start over the next month when we realize it doesn't work for the monitor, (repeat over and over for months/years). So for someone to say they got some dirt once and the monitor didn't burrow, we think yes.... try again.... not 'that is one special monitor'.

In fact, if someone was to say, 'I am having one heck of a time finding something that my monitor will dig in, it is frustating the heck out of me' I would nod my head in understanding, it is NOT easy and I have by no means found the answer. But the 'individual trait' just makes me shake my head, it is a copout that has been used many times to justify one's husbandry. If it doesn't burrow... fine, just don't blame the animal, accept where the blame lies.

--Robert

First, I had to start with WC's in order to get CH's. Thats a givin. And yes, WC's are a pain in the arse. When I first started, I would whine to my wife about being a monitor psychiatrist and nothing more. The reason was obvious, those WC monitors were nuts. My job is to allow them to be sane again.

In my first interviews, I think I mentioned that ackies were good, because they would teach you what all monitors should do. The basic life events and behaviors are the same. It is good to have a guide.

About picking on you, I don't. I try to have a discussion, but you want to defend yourself. I see things you post and I respond to some that ring a bell. I somehow thought thats what a forum is for. Like you saying your monitor does not burrow.

Its very hard for me to not try and help your monitor. As an example, there have been many here, that had really nice monitors that they kept without the ability to do what monitors do. Like burrow, these folks are mostly gone as their monitors have died, for one reason or another. Then they disappear.

There are many health issues associated with not burrowing properly, like chronic dehydration, related kidney problems, and gout. What do you think happens to monitors exposed to air??????

Have you ever asked yourself why all these savs soak???? They do not normally do that, but if givin a cage with no way to burrow and a screen top, they are now a piece of jerky. Dead monitor walking. I was hoping to help. I guess I am fooling myself. F

Health problems from not burrowing? And hear I thought it was a safety issue not a health issue. Gator has no problems shedding and has lived for over four years with no complications or health issues other than a broken leg back in 2000. Gator visits his vet every six months just for health checks and gets a clean bill every time. One point you seem to be missing is Gator is my only monitor that doesn't dig or burrow. He's been placed on many different dirt types, but the dirt he is on now he's done the best on.

I never said you were picking on me. I said you were tougher (hard was the actual word used) on me than others. Picking on a person is a malicious act, you aren't doing any of that sort. We are having a discussion. No rude words or comments have been said or anything like that.

What first interviews are you talking about? I have never asked about Ackies as a first monitor. I did ask about adding an Ackie to my current group.

Please don' think your wasting your breath, or your fingers. I am listening. I am taking it all in. I'm sorry that I'm not running out and getting new dirt at the speed that you or anyone else wants. I have a job that takes up a lot of my time now.
Christine

..like Gator might be physically healthy, but not mentally healthy.

The real question is, would making changes at this stage be of any benefit?
He seems to have adapted to his lifestyle, and decided what is safe, and what is not. Would it really be fair to change his home and habits at four years of age? I know they are adaptable, but...

What I would be concerned about, in all this discussion, is the hundreds of people reading, who want a Gator. The average newbie will WANT a spotless, well-behaved large lizard that shuns dirt and likes people. And although this is something that this particular lizard has adapted to, the average monitor won't, and will suffer for not becoming a people-lizard.

I'll bet Christine gets lots of emails asking how she got her lizard so tame, and so 'healthy'. They don't know her lizard is abnormal.

Hey, Chris, I think you did a good job raising him, for all what you knew about lizards at the time. No one could say you are neglecting your animal, or that you don't care. I think the guys are just trying to point out your lizard is nutso, and that they think enough of you for you to come to that conclusion. You have advanced far enough to be able to see that now.
Its sortof a compliment.
D.

Frank thanks for all you advice and imput.
Goon you said everything that I was trying to say. Perfectly even.
What would the Pros and Cons be to changing his substrate now? Gator has been on that dirt for about a year now maybe less. I could change it.
Yes I get emails about Gator and his, umm behaviors and taming. My replies are always the same. Even when posting pictures on here I make sure that I tell people to please do not expet, hope, or think there is even a glimmer of chance their monitor will turn out like Gator. 99.99999% of monitors will be "normal". Maybe the percentage is less. I will say it thounsands more times too!!!
I'm not oposed to the idea of changing his dirt again. Not in slightest. It probably really needs it.
Frank you mentions the pictures on varanus.net (great pics by the way) that simple dirt can and does lead the way to breeding and egg laying. Gator will never be a breeding male. He has in the past been put with two female Boscs on neutral ground and has tried to kill them both, one female barely survived and cost me some money in vet bills. I was not willing to see if third times the charm. So that has never been a thought in my mind.
Again thinking with a human mind many things were severely looked over on my part. All of which luckily is fixable.
Christine

Hmmmmmm...I shouldn't have anything, as usual. My bad.

Dearest, you are back to referring to Gator as unique, special and one of a kind. You talk about him like you are actually proud of his being different from 99.99 percent of other savs, instead of alarmed and worried.

Remember last week, your response to the guy who thought he had a unique, one of a kind, world's first dwarf savanna monitor? You told him "no such thing, jacka$$". (his husbandry was to blame).
Now what do you think people are trying to say about your unique, one of a kind, world's first non-burrowing sav?

Yep, its the exact same situation.
The fact that you dearly love your animal, does not change the fact you made him insane. How can you say he will never breed a female? Or dig a burrow? You really don't know what he is capable of doing, as he hasn't had the chance yet.

A real test of your monitor experience thus far would be to turn this animal around, and have him doing normal monitor behaviors. As FR is trying to point out, breeding is only one of many natural behaviors.
As far as losing him as a lap-lizard goes.. well, I think its a matter of his happiness or yours. I really don't think you will ever lose Gator's trust or affection, no matter how many burrows he digs, females he breeds, nests he defends, etc.
I don't envy the pictures on the forum I see of lizards hanging out on laps or couches, I envy the pics I see of Frank's wild scaly lizard, that lives its life and CHOOSES to be his friend.
That is the ultimate cool, to have a wild animal trust you.
Just my .02.
D.

Gator is a pet and that's all there is to it. People can call him whatever they want as well as I can.
For me saying the "No such animal jacka$$" bit that was in response to a person inquiring about buying a Dwarf Savannnah Monitor. Nothing was based on husbandry. From what I know he didn't even own a monitor at that time. I made an outburst based on a really poor attitude from a really bad week. It happens, it shouldn't, but it has.
"The fact that you dearly love your animal, does not change the fact you made him insane. How can you say he will never breed a female? Or dig a burrow? You really don't know what he is capable of doing, as he hasn't had the chance yet." I made him insane?? Are you sure that is the right word, and if so how do you figure??? I have stated a few times on here about Gator's previous expieriences with females and the outcomes, why would I risk the life of another monitor again? I also stated that on more that one occasion he's been given two feet of dirt, of different types, still with no digging or burrowing.
Well I guess that one insane lap-lizard is good for me out of the seven "normal" monitors that I own. To make everyone happy I will never post my expieriences with Gator anymore on this forum.
Thanks,
Christine

Many people have animals for their own reasons. Many people think "normal" is what happens in nature. What is normal anyway? Normal for one is not always normal for another.

I would think it selfish of you not to share any more experiences with a forum becuse people don't agree with your methods/animal. But that is your choice to make.

And quit being so hot headed, Crap you would think you're a redhead or something

Gene

I thought you had a better understanding of monitors than that.
My mistake.
Really, I wouldn't have said anything at all, but for the fact you are quick to tell others if their monitor is not OK. You should be recognizing if your own animals are not OK, too. You are not a newbie anymore.
And Gator isn't special, he's an ordinary sav that shows bizarre behavior because of you, because you are responsible for him. Accept that or not.
I accept that I am the reason for anything that happens to mine. And no, I am not perfect, I am making major mistakes up here. But they are MY mistakes, I am not holding the animals responsible.
Consider also that maybe he is your blind spot?
Its not a war here, and you should know by now that I like you and most people on here, I just say what I'm really thinking. It's a problem I have.

I hope all this has got you thinking about mental health in additon to physical health. =) As I think that was the whole point of the thread, for you and for all of us. Its not Pick-On-Christine Day! We are all here to learn too.
As I have already said, you may not want to make changes now. He can be crazy and happy too.
D.

As everyday world wide this happens with wild animals that learn to trust and be fed by people. Fortunately its a small lizard and not the usual alligator in Florida which ends up being killed or relocated to a zoo because they dont fear people anymore, because after that cute baby alligator grows up and is not fed anymore it goes after people expecting food and eats fido.
Squirrels do that all of the time and are put down because they climb on people afterwards and sometimes bite (watch people feed them in a park, eventually it happens). Racoons, rabbits, ground hogs you name the species, even invasive iguanas in Florida. All of them do as they normally do in the wild but come to accept a different food source that helps them to do what they do naturally.

I cannot get this forum to multi pic, so I posted it on varanus.net. The whole pictorial is there. Thanks F