Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As most know Texas has passed some laws that have been a mess to say the least to figure out. They got the horse before the cart so to speak. The problem is due to some in the academia realm that have an agenda to shut down the keeping of box turtles period as well as other herps, the laws are over shooting the actual data that is needed to justify such actions.
I feel we all want to get regulations to stop over collection but for those of us that can and have done a good job of keeping box turtles, we do not need to be punished. Captive breeding has never caused an extinction of anything!
Be carful not to join agenda driven groups that do not openly say they are against any keeping and breeding of a reptile species but have a more hidden agenda to shut it all down.
Ask them the hard questions like were is the real data to support what you say. Also make sure the scientific report or reports don't have data collected that is true but then insert opinions like " in my opinion I feel any collection is unsustainable" as these are comments that are not even backed by the actual data in these reports, and this is why it says "in my opinion". The only thing unsustainable is the opinion in the reports.
I am not going to name any names but I was told if I as a collector/breeder of box turtles took even one from the wild (even though I would take them only from areas being slated for development) would hurt the population. But, even academia has gotten permits for collection of up to 100 native box turtles for one person at one College! Now I am not saying that this collection is not for a good reason or that he would not get them from an area being slated for development also. But, it is the pot calling the kettle black.
Academia needs to give keepers that breed there reptiles more support and do the conservation together!!!!!!

You're a *commercial* collector, right? In the interest of fair play, it's important for you to be up front about any agenda you may have, too.

Collection/possession has not been banned (there are limits now) for personal possession. And, from what I understand, TX is reviewing options for a captive breeding program.

No I am not a commercial dealer. I am a hobbyist that collects and breeds the turtles.
You need to make the separation between mass collection for the food market and or pet trade and those that take in very low numbers for breeding groups.
Also even though they did not shut it totally down they did drop the number to six and so far have not made provisions for breeding and at first did not intend to.
So to be real fair, do not judge me before you know the facts. Also my idea to promote breeding and hobbyist is due to the fact that there is no data to support shutting it down.
It is a no brainer that breeding any species is not going to cause extinction.
Regulating the take of wild caught is justified. But, since little to nothing is done about development then it would not hurt to take a few from an area being developed. The turtles in those areas are going to die out anyway.
The highest impact on box turtle populations are caused by development, road killes, and poaaibly climate changes (natural or man made). Import/export pet traders take in high numbers of wild caught and do not breed any to soften the blow. To cut this down or even out is understandable. But to lump all hobbyist into this group and attack us all without any good real points is not helping to save turtle species.
So to be real fair you are agenda driven and felt the urge to attack me before you even got the facts. This is not scientific or reasonable.
Why do you feel that scientist are looking to captive breed species to save them but yet do not support hobbyist doing it?
What is wrong with my idea for them to work with us instead of against us? The animals and information we have could be used to benifit the cause of conservation.
Academia or the Parks system will not have the money or resourses to do it all anyway. Why not use hobbyist as a way of preserving genetic diversity rather than waiting until species are almost extinct and then captive breeding them like the California condor?
Would it hurt so much for agenda driven groups to lay off of hobbyist and attack the real problems?

Wow. You were able to to draw those conclusions about my motives based on my brief reply? That's amazing.

Lighten up.

Your post was breif but only made accusations and then comments that support the laws passed. You do not know the scop of it.
Texas Parks and Wildlife first told me to get rid of all but six native box turtles and to stop breeding them!
Yes, they are working onm a breeders permit now, but only because people like me did not take it easy.

The question is how many are you taking for "breeding groups" and are returning the babies to the wild or selling them?

I keep low numbers and have not collected any in years. It is not good to return captive produced turtles to the wild as they may spread diseases and then you have to be sure they are from the same gene pool. It takes an on sight breeding project to produce for re-introduction.
Breeding them in captivity is a way to preserve gene pools and wider genetics. Development is taking box turtle populations out fragmented population by population and they do not have a plan to stop this. So that being said captive colonies serve a good purpose even if they do not get re-introduced. In the future captive populations may be needed more than many would like to think. Most of the species I keep number from 6 to about 25 only. Really I should be keeping more but see no real need to unless it wopuld be for re-introduction as to keep the gene pools wider in the prodution of them.

Just curious how to find turtles on land that is being developed? I only ever see box turtles on the roads. I have never seen any in the fields or woods when I am walking (well, not never, but very seldom).

There are many areas that are being turned into houses in my area and I would like to rescue the turtles from these areas. Any ideas on how to spot them?

FYI, I currently have three 3 toed box turtles. They have hatched out eggs the last two years!

Thanks!

It would be a little different depending on the species you are looking for. Most developing areas have a low number there is any due to the road kills and so on that have already taken a tole. Don't expect to find many there.
Do not try to re-introduce them into anoither area without checking with a biologist about the genetics and diseases they could spread.

If you're a small-time hobbyist with a lot of experience with box turtles, chances are pretty good that you know a lot more about them than the people trying to push through these kinds of restrictions to private ownership. My advice to you would be this. Don't worry about the laws because they're virtually unenforceable anyway. If you don't contact the agencies responsible for enforcing the regulations, they will never contact you. There are a number of legitimate concerns about animal ownership that play into these situations. Conservation of endemic species and pubic health are probably the two most prominent. Nobody wants to see turtles wiped out by wide scale collection for the pet trade or food industry, and nobody wants to see little kids sick or dying from turtle-related Salmonella infections. Unfortunately, the scope of most of these laws ends up being much wider than necessary to control commercial trade. The federal four inch law that was enacted in 1975 was never intended to be applied to Joe Schmo who has a couple pet turtles at home. It was meant to reduce Salmonella transmission by impeding the availability of large numbers of turtles through the commercial pet trade. As with everything the government touches, a lot is always better than a little, so the tentacles of control just keep growing until they eventually reach into your living room. It's none of their damn business what you do in your home, unless you're collecting large numbers of endangered or threatened species for commercial purposes. These agencies always settle for any permit/license fees that they can collect from private individuals who are gullible enough to voluntarily come forth and apply for them. They can't even keep up with enforcing dog and cat license laws, so they sure as hell can't keep up with turtle laws. Enjoy your pets and stop worrying about Big Brother knocking on your door to confiscate your "illegal" turtles. It's not going to happen.

Mj, your posts always make me laugh, not at you, but rather with you, because your way of putting things into perspective is always "right on" and very elagant too I might add The thing is, most (certainly not all) laws are put in place with "good" intentions by "good" people, and with the general public, most people want to do what is right and following the laws is a part of whats right, so they simply are not comfortable going against that, justifiable or not. But your right, "Big Brother" has bigger fish to fry.
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

Thanks. If my writing is elegant, it's by accident. Me and elegance aren't usually in the same room together. I've just worked for a government agency for a long time, so I've seen how these kinds of regulations are applied firsthand and know from experience that they aren't enforced with any regularity. I know exactly what you're saying though. As a younger person, I always made sure I followed the rules. As I've gotten older and crustier, I've realized that the rules just keep expanding, and if you try to keep up with obeying every one of them, every last drop of joy will be squeezed out of your life. Government and academia work hand in hand a lot of times, and the end result is usually them telling you they know more than you do about whatever the issue happens to be. It's about control. As an individual private citizen, thinking for yourself, you couldn't possibly know as much as they do because you don't have the credentials. So they do your thinking for you and tell you how you're supposed to act. If I own two box turtles in Maryland without a permit, the reptilian equilibrium on planet earth will be thrown into chaos and life as we know it will cease to exist. It's just human arrogance that creates all of this hoopla over what is and isn't good for the turtles, or the dolphins, or the spotted owls. Government and academia have pretty much cornered the arrogance market. The turtles were here way before we were and they'll be here after we're gone. I like em and I'm keeping mine. Screw the laws and regulations.

Thank you for your support and posting.

I don't have illegal box turtles first of all. Also I have already contacted Texas Parks and Wildlife as I do not intend to run and hide or anything of that sort.
That being said much of what you said makes since. Blanket laws and laws not well writen although well intended often fail to do what good they should.
There is no plan to save box turtles from development. I understand not letting people rather if they are dealers or hobbyist just have a free for all and collect as much as they want unregulated.
But, since development can kill them and is collecting in areas slated for development has no impact on wild populations if they are going to die anyway. So unless they can do genetic testing to ID were the different gene pools are and then buy and save habitat there to keep it from being developed they will not get saved. There is no real saving them just because a list said they are protected and hobbyist get punnished while developers move in for the kill. Now, this is not to say I think we need to collect them all. We just need to work together for a better plan.