Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was sitting here thinking about our collection of Thayeri and pondering the crosses for next year as far as bloodlines etc. During that process and yes with my feeble mind it is a process, I was wondering about something.

Is Color/Pattern more important to you than bloodlines and/or locales when it comes to Thayeri, Alterna and Mex Mex.

Just wondering and I would be interested in your opinions and why.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

I know the captive population is an artificial thing (no plans to restock the wild with our CB babies), but I still like the "locality" over the "look" when given the choice.

My issue with the south of the border flavors is that we do not have anything better than general data on almost all of our current breeding stock.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

For me locality is way more important. I breed "ugly" Langtry Blair's and selectivly breed to keep them that way because that's what I associate with the locality. I still like selectively breed locality stuff and generics too and can appreciate the way each different locality "blooms" uniquely in the F2 generation and beyond but generally not as much as a natural color phase.

John,
I've always been a big fan of color and pattern over locality. Unlike alterna, thayeri and potosi would be a tough sell for me if someone was pushing locality only because I don't believe many (if any) folks can w/ 100% assurance prove the locality of the thayeri in their private collections.

Russ

I agree with what Russ said but I would add that if there is a new line of locality animals I would like to see it kept that way for at least a few years so that the bloodline can be disseminated to other breeders. An animal that's 100% new blood would be of more value to me than one that is only 50% new blood.

Maintaining a locality "pure" line, I think, would be a dead end project unless a significant number of founders were involved. With thayeri its not as if we can always go back tot he locality to get fresh blood. IMHO it is more important to cross bloodlines to maintain robust stock than line breed for a straight pedigree to limited wild stock.

As far as what I breed for, I go for the clean wild type look and I like to see a high level of variability within a clutch. For this reason I generally don't breed two screaming hi color animals together. I also tend to shy away from breeding two milk snake phase animals as in my experience the pattern is somewhat dominant.

I have to go with looks over local, because I can hear a name of a local but i still want to see it. I wouldn't believe you if you told me other wise. I also belive locals can be a little overated. Snakes do travel.
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i'm not over weight i'm under tall

I tend to lean more towards the locality. I do think some of the brighter colors of the line bred thayeri are nice, but they don't have the appeal to me that the local specific bloodlines do. I find the wild type more attractive in mex mex, thayeri and alterna.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Just curious but who is selling locality specific thayeri and what proof do they have of the locality data? Since people are not bringing more local specific thayeri into the U.S. (at least legally) how can one expect to purchase more locality thayeri in the future as stock dies off? Seems to me that is a dead end road....unlike alterna or say subocularis.
Russ

There are very few locality specific thayeri out there but you can still purchase some from a few select breeders, mainly the old timers still have locale specific stock.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

The best answer I could give is...... for thayeri diversity in the blood line because I agree with Russ. I just wouldn't have much confidence in someone who's talking locale. If diversity produces nice colors all the better.

Alterna is completely different I mostly prefer locale animals but have no real prejudice against non-locale. As a matter of fact I think we need to breed some mongrels just to diversify the bloodlines.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

John,

Thats a very interesting question...and a smart one. I am trying to infuse my collection of thayeri with as much genetic diversity as possible. The CB gene pool is very limited at this point. To be able to infuse my collection with some WC genetics and specific bloodlines...such as the Lemkes, pure Applegates, etc...will allow me to try to minimize inbreeding as much as possible.

I do love the color and pattern of thayeri. And those factors are important also. If I am going to sell some of the offspring I produce, then I believe it will be important to have some nice visual animals, and some strong genetic lines to offer. But I guess my overall philosophy will be to first establish the genetic diversity of my collection, then select for color and pattern from there. Does that make sense?
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You know I enjoyed the responses and they were about what I expected.

For me Alterna that are locale specific are a big plus as the diversity of the eastern animals and the western animals are so great. Specific locale information that goes along with the visual cues that go with them make me desire and therefore pay more for locale specific alterna.

The Thayeri are a little different, even though I know general areas of collections on a lot of my animals, actual specific locale as we know it in alterna is not something that I can or anyone else can document to my knowledge. So the next best thing for me is to track the importations/confiscations as I know them from over the years and back that up with as much tracking of breeding data as I can from any and all sources I may get animals from. Thereby sttempt to work with diverse genetics breeding groups within the collection. Then we start to breed for things like pattern and color.

As far as Mex Mex again the same holds true, though there is a little more data on some of them then there is on the thayeri.

While we are on the subject, what makes a locale specific pair of animals. 1 mile, 10 miles, geographic barriers, counties????

Also someone above made a comment about snakes traveling a lot, actually with most of the animals we are talking about there is really very little travel and it is very easy because of this for genetic deviation to become apparent. I would guess that the average alterna moves less than 5 - 15 square miles in its life time and most move much less than that. Sex of the animal in question, food supply, water and type of habitat are just a few of the thing that would govern that. A perfect example is the alterna, look at the almost totally different look you get from a Val Verde County animals from say one from Black Gap or the river road.

Just my thoughts, with that and a .75 you may be able to get a cup of coffee. LOL

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

on this one. Seems to me he has done a significant amount of field study in this arena. I have no experience to base an opinion from on this issue.

I can tell you as a kid I had a pet coach whip that got away three different times and each time I caught him within 1000 yards from my house. It was absolutely the same snake and in some cases there was up to 6 months between jail break and recapture

Good discussion John.

Russ

I'm with John, or close to john on this one.

mtDNA studies will show that even two geographically close populations of alterna (alpine vs ft davis) can be differentiated genetically.

Rogue males are likely most responsible for gene travel, along with random events like a little ride down the river and out the other side.

These events are so gradual and take many thousands of years. Viewing in real time will lead you to conclude that it doesn't happen, but change is constant.

I'd take locality data over looks any day, even if they are locality matched naturally occuring hybrids / intergrades.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Sorry Joe didn't mean to leave your name out as I know you've done alot of field work in the area too. Thanks for speaking up.
Russ

I don't post too much but I'm always reading and not shy about opening my pie hole

PS You hatched a bunch of killer thayeri this year, I drooled over a bunch of them and would have bought some but I'm a broke son of a gun this year.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Dude..........you are a sucker for punishment. Three times too. You LIKE getting bit don't you? I think the coachwhip had you as a pet.

I would agree with Joe too about intergrades/hybrides. About the only thing thats going to move snakes around much is a river ride or flood, and even then I'd bet alot of them try to get back to their own stomping grounds
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

this coach whip mas the nicest snake....must have been the Keeper's influence....anyhoo this was a really mellow coachy. My buddy down the street had one that was over 6' long and was a big puppy dog. I actually believe he became that way from being overfed and he was to fat to be anything but mellow.

They are actually really cool snakes and a personal favorite of mine. I've caught them many times while growing up in NW Florida and most recently caught another while vacationing at my in-laws house in WPB FL.

The ones out your way come in a really beautiful color scheme. Go catch one
Russ

I posted that because of my personal experiences with coachwhips. I kept one too for several months when I was in my early 20's. I caught it when it was a juvie climbing straight up an old cottonwood tree. He had his body all wedged in the bark. He bit the crap out of me while I was trying to get him out of the bark. That little dude bit me EVERY time I handled him. I guess the ones out here are just mean SOB's

Yes I've seen a bunch out here (remember the pic of the snake in the hole). Have you ever tried to keep up with an adult? They have amazing speed.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

I lean toward the color/pattern crowd because I am fascinated with the great intraspecies diversity of phenotypes in the captive thayeri gene pool. I also enjoy bright colors and interesting variations in pattern, thought the subtle charms of more earth-toned animals are growing on me.

I also respect the locale first folks and think that theirs is a valid viewpoint.

It's just personal taste, but what I do NOT care for is
cross-species hybridization (e.g. Cal king X Corn, alterna X sinaloan). Interesting, but not my cup of tea.

Tom Corley

Personally I go for color and pattern over locality with Thayeri. Bloodlines are important to me to some extent. I want to have diverse bloodlines to keep the genes strong, and also some lines known for producing killers like Vermilya's.

I am especially fascinated by the incredible variability of this species. To a non-herper, I bet these would all look like different species!

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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

John,

If I had to answer this question 2 years ago, I would have answered with color/diversity over locality but over the past 6-10 months or so...I'm for locality first and color/diversity second. I've had the pleasure of corresponding with some of the "Old Timers" (no disrespect intended) of the Thayeri universe this year and things have changed for me regarding keeper/breeder "philosophy".

There were several considerations for me about this issue and the first one was the general lack of genetic records kept and/or lost over time. There are a myriad of reasons as to why this has occurred but, this has in fact occurred. Therefore with the exception of just a few folks out there that do keep and maintain the records, this information is extremely difficult to obtain and thus for all practical purposes some of my animals are "generic" Thayeri.

The second consideration is CITES, the USF&W and to a lesser extent locale and state wildlife agncies. After Mexico banned fuana/flora exports (late 1970's) and then later signed CITES in 1991, this enabled enforcement action (confiscation and prosecution) here in the US of Mexican animals. This caused many Thayeri folks to go underground about their animals and thus created the "void" about locality information of the animals in their collections...In a sense, folks could pay a huge penalty for keeping locality information indicating the "source of origin" from Mexico itself...

Having said that IMHO, the locality information is the most important aspect of the Thayeri because the original animals that are here legally (including confiscated WC's) from WC genetics have already passed away and/or will soon do so...and with their passing, all of the gentic information that they carried with them. And once it is gone from captivity...it is basically gone forever (never to return) for most of us because most of us cannot afford to travel to the locales for ourselves. For me, this preservation is the most important aspect of the Thayeri husbandry and why "locaility" is very precious and thus, the most important breeding factor to me. Granted this information is very hard to come by but, it is legally out there if you look for it.

So for me, this is a breeding philosophical issue and what does the individual breeder hope to produce (and why) as far as offspring from their breeding program. There is nothing wrong with color/diversity (as long as it is not hybridization) over locality and vice-versa...It is just up each of us regarding our own "philosophy" as to what each of us seeks to achieve with our respective breeding program(s)...The one thing that I adamently oppose is the deliberate hybridization of these animals but, I am sure that there is probably intergradation among the animals within their locales in the wild...

For me from what I've read via publications and correspondence there appears to be generally a montane-v-lowland and leeward-v-windward (water versus no water=vegetative/non-vegetated cover) that dictates the Thayeri "phase" (just my opinion). From what I've been able to read and applying what I already know about natural selection, mutation, gene-recombination, etc...perhaps what we are witnessing is the competition process of nature selecting the most successful design of the Thayeri species (debatable) in the wild. Which is why "locality" is important to me...research and study. One of the interesting aspects of the Thayeri for me is that variety of the hatchlings from each clutch...I mean how can you ever get bored with what happens on hatch day? I mean you never know what you are going to get...

Generally speaking...Leonis seems to predominate in lowland dry, non-vegetated areas and the MSP seems to predominate in the vegetated montane locales and to "prove this out", locale has to be known. Granted this is just a hypothesis but, there are several of you old timers that have mentored me and I'm becoming a believer...Only time and research will tell as to the validity of this...I do know that I truly enjoy my Thayeri over all of the other animals that I've ever kept in captivity...I AM A CONFIRMED ADDICT!!!

This is just my "philosophy" of what I'm going to do and what I look for to acquire new animals for my collection...Locality first followed by color/diversity (certainly a valid consideration if you want to avoid "line breeding"...

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

"For me, this preservation is the most important aspect of the Thayeri husbandry and why "locaility" is very precious and thus, the most important breeding factor to me. Granted this information is very hard to come by but, it is legally out there if you look for it"

Couple of things here Jim, number one why exactly is locality preservation in captive thayeri precious? You mention that it is but really give no reason as to why. Surely you are not insinuating that the captive population is all that is left of the original wild diversity? If so I would agree but for the life of me I don't see how a philosophical approach to breeding could possibly be considered "precious". We're talking pet snakes here not the discovery of a long lost gospel!

Second is the notion that the locality information is out there. I've been collecting and breeding thayeri since the 80's and I can tell you that the information on the VAST majority of stock is scant at best. If you were to limit breeding to animals that do have good claim to locality status, you'd barely have enough founding individuals to keep a single line of generic thayeri going over the long term much less several locality lines. For my part I would be concerned most about the long-term viability of captive thayeri given the use of all current stock!

Don't get me wrong here I like locality animals but the point is basically moot with thayeri. In the pit and alterna communities they at least have the data and access to new stocks to support a locality approach. Here we don't plain and simple.

All that said I agree with your observations about broad locality basis for leonis and ms phase thayeri. IMHO roughly the same thing occurs on the west coast across the Sierra Madre Occidental with greeri and webbi. Interesting that here the two forms are given separate taxonomic status. I wouldn't be surprised if down the road someone makes the determination that this is the case with thayeri as well.

Tony,

Hey man, I know that from time to time you will discuss things for the sake of argument (to see where someone's head is at so to speak) and we are discussing a breeder's philosophy regarding what they hope to achieve with their breeding program. A "philosophy" is difficult to debate but I'm game so here goes nothing...

If I understand what you are suggesting from your post is that from your point of view..."We're talking pet snakes here and not of a long lost gospel!" If that is what you believe then that is disappointing because after reading your input over the years here on the forum I have to ask, is that all they are to you (just pet snakes) or did I read that the wrong way?

Now to some of your other points...

"Couple of things here Jim, number one why exactly is locality preservation in captive thayeri precious?" Since you've been collecting and breeding Thayeri since the 80's then you already know how difficult these genetics are to obtain (even back in the day). Additionally, as you state in your post, "the information on the VAST majority of stock is scant at best"...Then I would say that you have already answered your own question as to why locality Thyeri are "precious". Back in the day, "locality" genetics (and the information) was extremely difficult to come by in the first place in anyone's collection here in captivity in the US.

"Second is the notion that locality information is out there". Yes, it is very rare these days (and getting rarer by the day) as I am sure that you are well aware of as is "locality" information about any of the Mexicana's. Now from the animals that you collected back in the 80's from Mexico, how many of those adults are still around in your collection? Probably none of them except as F1 and F2 offspring assuming you did not outcross them for diversity purposes. If you outcrossed them then you "diluted" the pure locality from your own collection.

Am I not as experienced as you regarding the Thayeri but, I read what I read and I have gathered information from folks that have been doing this for as long as you (if not longer) and in my own limited experience of acquiring Thayeri these past three years, I can definitively say;

1. Locality Thayeri are precious because there aren't many of them around in any collections anymore because of death, out-crossing and/or scant records.

2. Locality Thayeri were very difficult to obtain back in the days when you could make a collecting trip into Mexico and these days it is virtually impossible. For all practical purposes the best most of us can hope for is to obtain WC genetics (much less locality information) via confiscation.

3. Just to see a live "locality" Thayeri one has to either travel to Mexico or a zoo (which in the case of Mexico, most of us cannot financially do). Granted, you can see some "locality" Thayeri in photogrpahs of those folks that do travel to Mexico for scientific purposes or you can see some dead ones in jars in museum and/or university as they are exempt from US wildlife laws that apply to the rest of us.

So where does this leave us regarding "locality" Thayeri? Let's see, the original animals have either passed away or are no longer viable for reproduction; they've been outcrossed out with stock that the VAST number of them have scant records; or you have to look at a photograph or travel someplace (Mexico itself or a Zoo) to even see a locality Thayeri...

So to answer your points above I would have to say Yes, a "locality" Thayeri (or any of the other Mexicana's) is very precious indeed!

Regarding your other points in your post, the "locality" Thayeri may turn out to be a moot point in time but part of the reason we are where we are about the "Thayeri" is because folks that bred them didn't keep producing "locality" offspring as long as the F0/WC adults were viable or didn't keep accurate records or went underground because of regulations and kept the information a secret out of fear of legal action by a government at some level after CITES.

Now all that being said...I'm doing what I'm doing for my future breeding program for research purposes first (genetics) and economics second (to fund the first) and this is only me...If you are doing this for economic reasons...Then I say by all means go for it (it is America and we are still reasonably free these days).

Last but not least, we agree about generally broad locality for MSP and Leonis...I think that we can all exist within the framework of the Thayeri "community" and I'll just be a small part of it...

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Yes I'm just probing to see were this goes. The fun part is seeing if you (or I) can support our respective positions.

I would say Jim that snakes mean a quite a lot to me if for no other reason that they have served as a doorway to a much larger natural world but the snakes in my collection, though I am a bit loath to admit it, are pets and little more. Fact is I get a bigger thrill seeing a new bird species at the feeder cause at least its wild.

Wish I had more time to go into some of what you said but the season has other demands. I will say that what I take away from it is that locality is an important means of differentiating the collection for you but it simply remains a collection criterion. I would speculate that if all that was available to you were depressed locality lines you might differentiate by crossing a few of the locals to establish a more robust line. Perhaps I'm reading my mind trip onto you but I think most collectors seek to have the "best" or most unique collection based on some abstract criteria and for some snake collectors locality is the ticket.

And yes there are a lot of guys who have been into thayeri longer and who have dug in much deeper in a shorter time but I can only convey what I learned to be the case when I was acquiring these line years ago. Nobody knew s _ _ t best describes it. Did I outcross locality line? God I hope so I’d hate to think I spent all that time bugging the mess out of people for lineage info only to end up with 100% Applegate stock! Remember that 25 -30 years ago all this information we take for granted on the net was not available. It was all done by mail or phone and animals were bought sight unseen. IMHO most of the information available now is a reconstruction of various memories. Not totally without merit but far from certain.

Tony,

Thanks man...Gathering information to form an opinion and then defending it is always a good thing...and if it turns out to be unsupportable then a re-evaluation is in order...or at least a journey to gather more information...Man, sometimes it makes your head hurt.

In any case, because of the regulatory environment (post CITES) and that created by US Department of Interior and to a lesser extent state and locale governments who in their infinite wisdom has curiously exempted themselves (and a few other selected entities) have had a major impact on what we can keep and/or breed and this is very unfortunate for their (the Thayeri and other Mexicanas) long term genetics viability (and variability) in private (and sometimes even zoos) collections. Bummer!

I also want to say to you that I understand completely what you are talking about regarding diversity because some of the old timers that I correspond with have had to cross this bridge (out crossing) for the very reasons that you and I have been talking about here. This is in line with a new post by John regarding how many adults do you need to be able to produce unrelated offspring without having to go "outside" to acquire new genetics? Because of the environment that we are working with regarding the Thayeri (you far longer than me) these days, a confiscated WC adult (locale unknown) is probably about as good as it gets most of the time...

Perhaps we can discuss some of this over beverages at Daytona if you go this year...I believe I met you in 2006...By the way, that animal on your post is exquisite...Nice broad saddle splits...Nice earth tones and muted head pattern...Very nice!

Hey, on the lighter side of things (the pricing is just for asthetic purposes)...

A 1.1 with known bloodline (records)...$250-350.

A 1.1 confiscated WC (locale unknown)...$600-800.

A 1.1 confiscated WC (with known locale)...PRICELESS! Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.

PS: Dan Johnson's website should be required reading...
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CSRAJim

"Perhaps we can discuss some of this over beverages at Daytona"

You bet!! I got the first round.

Tony,

Roger that...Looking forward to it. Will you have a table?

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim