Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings:

I'm going to post this to both Herp-Health and Boa forums--please give me input as to my options.

I got the lab results from our male red-tail Midnight. He had IBD through and through, every single sample and there must have been almost 20, but it was for the URI that we had him put down. I think the results indicate that the digestive system, not the neurological system, would have been the next failure.

We have 2 pregnant females--probably due Jan 13, and Jan 31. Obviously they've been exposed as have the babies; and I know that eventually sacrificing one baby won't tell me about anyone else. We don't have the funds to have living biopsies done on anyone.

1) Since we have to disclose the fact that there has been real IBD exposure, would anyone really want to buy these babies from us? If so, what should we ask (since we want to sell in bulk)?
2) Given that they are due in January, should we let them go to term or should we try to get the moms to abort? If abort, then does anyone know the safest way for the mothers?
3)Any ideas about whether normal Humane Societies might help with putting down a bulk load of baby snakes if it came to that?

I've left a message with the breeder we sold last February's batch to--- the last time I spoke with him a few months ago, he said that the few remaining babies he still had were still healthy and eating like pigs, no signs of URI or IBD, so I have hope that the babies might be carriers at "best".

These were not intended breedings. And now I would like to do the right things for everyone, to whatever extent we can afford it--and sadly we're working on a very limited budget.

Thank you for your time,
Antigone

Antigone, I"m so sorry that the IBD is real. At least now you know for sure.

At this stage, the safest way to abort the females is through surgery, and likely spaying the mothers. This won't be cheap unfortunately. Talk to your vet about your situation and what options they may have for you. You might get lucky with an extra charitable vet, who knows.

You've already contacted the owner of the last litter, not much more that you can do on that one.
For this litter, price isn't really a factor... you'll probably be giving them away, but if you can sell them, well, then you can sell them.

I think the best thing you can do is keep all the babies for 6 months yourself. Quarantine them from the parents and separate them if they show symptoms. If they are doing great after 6 months, they are still "IBD exposed" and risky, but likely safe to move to new homes without risking premature death. As you have mentioned, make sure they know about the IBD status and that they should research this so they know what they are dealing with. You can give them my email if you'd like. New owners should be single reptile homes, or at least single boid homes.

Ian

Ian:
Thanks for replying. Could you walk me through this one more time? I'm probably going to run these by our vet, but if you have answers, I'll take them.
1) Univ of Georgia confirmed IBD by looking at 20 some samples and seeing bodies in almost everything, but especially in pancreas, kidney, respiratory tract, and intestine. Is it worth trying to get a second opinion? Is it POSSIBLE to get a second opinion (ie what likely happened to those samples--Midnight himself is surely ash by now)?
2) Would clearing the mothers mean that the babies are clear too, or would it just be a case of a possible 'false negative'?
2a) If negative mother= negative babies, can the mothers safely undergo biopsies if they are due (I think) Jan 13 and Jan 31?
2ai)Can biopsy results be obtained fast enough that if positive, they could do an aborting (and spaying?) surgery the same time/day?

Should we put down the mothers now--solely because of the IBD exposure risk-- while they are still pregnant, since we're not sure that we'd be able to keep them in the long run anyway?
Would you?

Pondering ethics of life/death, animal rights, and feminism,
Antigone

1) The university of Georgia is second to none at this kind of thing. Combine that with the fact that it was such a strong positive with inclusions everywhere, you can be pretty certain they are right. I wouldn't need a second opinion. If you do, the university might still have the samples, different labs have different protocols for how long they keep samples in case further tests are asked for.

2) You can't clear an animal from IBD. You can look in tissue samples for inclusions. If you find some, the animal is positive. If you don't find any, you can't rule out that you didn't look in the right tissue or that the disease hasn't produced any inclusions.

2...) If you were to try biopsies, then any time is a good time. Pancreas, liver, CNS, and intestinal tissues are the most likely to reveal a positive. Some samples are harder to obtain than others. Considering the above 2) you are still faced with the same decision with the litter. If going for biopsies, do so during the spay. The outcome will be in regards to the mother's future, not the offspring.

I don't put down animals unless they are in need of it. A positive animal can still lead a happy, healthy life in quarantine from other animals. Many people do indeed put down animals that are positive or possibly so, mainly because this is indeed a serious disease and they cannot guarantee that they can prevent it's spread with the animals still alive. I cannot argue this, and don't. I keep mine in quarantine for years on end because I can, not everyone is in this position. It's your call.

If euthanasia is your best route because you won't be able to handle that many offspring, or afford to have them aborted, then it's a tough decision, but one that I would also support. These offspring can't just go to anyone. However, talk with your vet. I would seriously consider keeping the mothers and euthanizing the litter instead... for all you know the litters won't be viable anyway.

"Pondering ethics of life/death, animal rights"
That's the universal debate isn't it? Not only must you consider what's best for the individual snake, but all the other snakes that might suffer from the spread of IBD. Stuck inbetween a rock and a hard place, do what you think is right and you've done all that you can do

Ian

Thanks again Ian.

We're still in deliberations and I have a call out to the vet for prices. At this point we're thinking about putting Odin down now. Freya may either be aborted/spayed/biopsied, or allowed to go to term if my bf decides he wants one of the offspring. Midnight was His baby. Any others in the litter would have to be euthanized. Still not sure if I'm up for keeping Freya, and I have an email out to someone who was interested in her several months ago--post-IBD suspicion, but pre-IBD confirmation.

In my IBD-glazed eyes, I'm now wondering about our ball python, Hopey. Hopey, our ball, has recently been refusing food, though often appearing interested enough for me to thaw it, and seemed a bit hyperstartled the other night when I went to pick her up from a slither around the living room. She's been fairly active, every night reaching up to get out of the tank. Sadly, I've been on a rollar coaster with her heat pad under one of her hides, causing her to sleep out under a log hide. I'm going to ask the vet about her too, but do you think I'm getting paranoid? My previous male ball python used to curl up in a ball a lot as a defense mechanism; Hopey, a female, seems more inclined to try to slither away, sometimes almost flailing to do so. Is that normal for balls? Is that normal for female vs. male?

Sorry about my continued "books". Happy and Health Holidays,
Antigone

with the vet, I'm feeling a bit stupid. The girls are too far along. Putting them down now will not automatically kill the babies as I had hoped/thought. Mom would die, and babies would still be alive. Messy. Indiana Jones III (or was it II) dinner scene kinda messy. Spaying while aborting late term might also be too messy and risky; and trying to throw in taking biopsies, means cutting open much more than doing either procedure separately, and again is too much risk.

So both will go to term. Odin and most (except one?) of the babies, hers and Freya's, will be put down --babies in bulk-- and what and how much more we do to Freya is still up in the air. I'm still getting quotes on spaying and biopsies (as separate processes).

ho ho ho.
Antigone

ahh, what a mess. If there is one positive, it's that you have access to a herp vet that sounds like they know what they are doing. I wish you well in the new year.

Ian