Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings:

I'm going to post this to both Herp-Health and Boa forums--please give me input as to my options.

I got the lab results from our male red-tail Midnight. He had IBD through and through, every single sample and there must have been almost 20, but it was for the URI that we had him put down. I think the results indicate that the digestive system, not the neurological system, would have been the next failure.

We have 2 pregnant females--probably due Jan 13, and Jan 31. Obviously they've been exposed as have the babies; and I know that eventually sacrificing one baby won't tell me about anyone else. We don't have the funds to have living biopsies done on anyone.

1) Since we have to disclose the fact that there has been real IBD exposure, would anyone really want to buy these babies from us? If so, what should we ask (since we want to sell in bulk)?
2) Given that they are due in January, should we let them go to term or should we try to get the moms to abort? If abort, then does anyone know the safest way for the mothers?
3)Any ideas about whether normal Humane Societies might help with putting down a bulk load of baby snakes if it came to that?

I've left a message with the breeder we sold last February's batch to--- the last time I spoke with him a few months ago, he said that the few remaining babies he still had were still healthy and eating like pigs, no signs of URI or IBD, so I have hope that the babies might be carriers at "best".

These were not intended breedings. And now I would like to do the right things for everyone, to whatever extent we can afford it--and sadly we're working on a very limited budget.

Thank you for your time,
Antigone

Do you have the option of holding on to the individuals yourself? We don't know a whole lot about IBD, so I would be wary passing these guys off onto someone with out knowing for sure. Even though they would be knowingly purchasing the animals, they could sell with out disclosure, and that could risk the virus being spread to more of the general boid population.

I would not try to get mom to abort, that would be very dangerous! If euthanasia is your only option, for neonates, most people agree freezing is one of the more humane methods.

Good luck!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

hi,

Unless any of the babies (one at most) are truly outstanding, the plan is actually to even try to find homes for the moms at the end of it all, and just keep my ball python. Red-tails are beautiful, but they're a bit more than I can handle on my own when the bf is away....and I want to focus more on my horses.
And I have actually heard that freezing is NOT at ALL humane, but different opinions vary to what extent.

Not happy,
Antigone

Right now is where you have to have total faith in your Vet that the diagnosis was correct. Anything that lives and dies ( whether natural or un-natural ) will have inclusion bodies present on biopsies and the like. If I remember correctly, a "Inclusion body" is a broad term for alot of things, and just because they are present doesn't mean IBD. Get a second or third opinion, and if the Females are IBD positive, then put the Females down before they drop. I myself would call the University of Florida and talk with the Doctor ( I can't remember his name, the write up on the research was done years ago ) that published what we know on/as IBD and go from thier. The fact that your Ball Python hasn't contracted/died from it kind of makes me suspicious of the diagnosis. Boas can carry it for a while before showing symptoms, it usually takes Pythons out fairly quick. However, I would have a firm sitdown with anybody involved with the knowledge/reasearch and try to figure this stuff out as it pertains to you.

.

First, I am so sorry to hear this! That must be so disheartening to learn your Midnight had IBD and now your other snakes could be at risk. I cannot imagine the heartbreak.

Personally, I would assume the worst.
I would not sell any of the babies, especially in bulk... most babies sold in bulk get re-sold and I would bet dollars to donuts whoever re-sells them would not pass along the fact that they may have IBD. Even if they are just 'carriers' and act healthy and don't show symtoms (since boas can harbor the disease for a long period of time), IMO, it is un-ethical to sell them regarldess if you know they have IBD or not, just the fact they were exposed (well the mothers were exposed) is enough for me.
Aborting them seems like the best option but I don't know if that can even be done. If not, I would euthanize the babies once they were born (a vet can do this). You could have a few necropsies (sp?) done on the babies if you really wanted too, but that could get expensive. I would assume the mothers are now carriers as well, don't breed them or expose them to any other collections or other snakes. Keep them as pets or put them down.
All just my opinion and what I would do if I was in that situation.
Good luck and once again, my sympathies.
-April

I agree with both posters that it would be unethical to sell them. My vote would be to keep them as pets if you can. If you can't, I think euthanasia is the best alternative.

Actually working in the field of vet medicine I can tell you that freezing is in NO WAY a humane method of euthanasia. It would actually constitute animal abuse in most states. If having a vet inject them with euthanasia solution is not an option I would look into a CO2 chamber. It would take a while as they can hold their breath for extended periods, but would be painless. If you took them to a humane society, even if they agreed to do it, they would probably do an intracardiac injection or try to inject it into the liver, which is quite painful w/o anesthesia. Most humane societies do not have staff with the veinipuncture experience of a vet, especially not on a small snake. Just my 2 cents.

CO2 is also a very slow death,it doesn't affect reptiles like it does mammals.
Sorry to hear of your situation,many have come before you and many will surely follow.Its a severe blow to understand how important it is to avoid the greed and stop the disease from spreading.You have the potential to cause many,many people to be where you are today.

How's it feel to be in control ?

>>I agree with both posters that it would be unethical to sell them. My vote would be to keep them as pets if you can. If you can't, I think euthanasia is the best alternative.
>>
>>Actually working in the field of vet medicine I can tell you that freezing is in NO WAY a humane method of euthanasia. It would actually constitute animal abuse in most states. If having a vet inject them with euthanasia solution is not an option I would look into a CO2 chamber. It would take a while as they can hold their breath for extended periods, but would be painless. If you took them to a humane society, even if they agreed to do it, they would probably do an intracardiac injection or try to inject it into the liver, which is quite painful w/o anesthesia. Most humane societies do not have staff with the veinipuncture experience of a vet, especially not on a small snake. Just my 2 cents.
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TnK

To ellaborate on euthanasia:

I also worked for several vets and in the lab where we did frequent euthanasias. For the most part reptiles in the our vets office would be injected once in the heart. The animal was not "pre-treated" with pain killers though. In the lab we would use decapitation as our primary method.

A lot of hobbyists choose to freeze rather than use one of the above options. Freezing is definetly not something that is recommended by most veterinary experts, primarily because they suggest blood crystals form causing pain during the process. I have not used this method myself, but it is popularily used for reptiles under 1 pound in weight. Few hobbyist agree that freezing is a good source of euthanasia for larger reptiles, and should never be used in endotherms.

I hope that you are able to get a second opinion, and perhaps things aren't as bad as you think! Vets and hobbyists alike are quick to make assumptions on IBD, but there is not a lot of factual data out there!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

I once had a rather entertaining "debate" with a Humane Society employee giving us a euthanasia course regarding decapitation. They say it's perfectly humane to chop off a snakes head, and the book even explained how to use a SHOVEL to whack the snakes head off. Basically, I said I'd agree, if I could chop either a dog or cats head off with a shovel as well. Obviously it becomes inhumane at that point....so how is it humane to do to a reptile if you wouldn't do it to a dog? It's effective, but I would hardly call it humane since MOST people would NOT get the job done on an adult boa with the first "whack". For injured reptiles, we generally did an IP injection. As for the IBD, nothing in, nothing out, and selling anything or giving them away shouldn't even be an option at this point. As a lot of others said, you have no control over what the next person does with them. Sorry to see you in the situation, but you should be commended for getting a necropsy done!

before you kill them all!

DO NOT SELL THEM. Even if you disclose possible IBD infection, a re-seller may not. In fact, selling in bulk, aka wholesale, is the worst idea. A LOT of re-sellers don't have a reputation worth anything, and would likely flip those boas around for a buck and not give a crap if any of them infect someones collection.

That said, IBD is miss-diagnosed a LOT. So there are other things to consider.

For the time being, DO NOT bring new animals into your collection, and DO NOT let any OUT.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

Namely, how can one protect his collection from IBD, given what we know? From what I understand, this virus can lurk undetected for month, even years. So is 3 months' quarantiene really sufficient? Six months? a year?

Unfortunately, it looks like the answer is "no".

It's scary.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

All boas in that collection should be QUARANTINED!
Nothing in. Nothing out.
By all means, DO NOT sell them, or trade them, or give them to anyone!
Get a second opinion.
I have no idea the best method of euthanasia.
Notification and/or disclosure of the individual that that boa came from is something to consider.
Thank you for your decency and courage to come forward and for being honest and forthright with your situation.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Thank you to everyone who responded. I have more clarification and more q's. Midnight was necropsied by Eastern Exotics in Fairfax, VA. Some 20 tissue samples from just about every major organ and system was sent to the Univ of Georgia College of Vet Med Infectious Disease Lab. IB's were seen in almost all tissues, but especially in pancreatic acinar cells and the epithelium of the kidney, respiratory tract and intestines. "Comment: The histological findings support the clinical diagnosis of IBD." There's a lot more, but if I can't get 'Dr. Mom' to translate it for me tonight, I'm going to call the vet back and ask. Someone here suggested a second opinion. How would we do that? I'm not sure who has the samples anymore or if they can be rechecked.

We are not planning on bringing anything new into our collection--well, not anything boid or python. My bf may still be dreaming of a kingsnake or rat snake. However, if, hypothetically everyone is born and born health, and we're looking at at least possibly 40 new babies....we can't possibly keep them all. I can't handle the two we have on my own...
So if "nothing in, nothing out" what you're saying is to see about having them aborted?
Q: If the mothers were tested, either by biopsy or necropsy, and tested negative-- would that give our babies a clean bill of health? Or might that just be a false negative?
TnK, your comment about being "in control" when that's the last thing I feel, was a slap in the face. It's a good thing I like face slapping. Thank you. It might make having the babies put down easier.
But it still sucks and I'd still appreciate input, comments, suggestions.
Antigone

Was the body frozen before it was Necropsied?

Did Midnight have severe symptoms that would indicate IBD?

Reality comes to folks in many forms,rarely do people heed any of the suggestive options afforded by forum threads in the IBD context.
Instead they opt to cash out and disappear.
If you feel slapped,then thats your personal interpretation of my comment.I don't intend to blow smoke up peoples chimneys on forums to be accepted as part of some cyber cliché much less politically correct.
What I do understand is how people don't interpret near enough of what is said to them via these forums.When topics as serious as IBD are brought up their handled in a generic forum manner which commonly turns complacent and the origin of the threads soon fade away, common sense would tell one what decision was made toward resolution.
The hobby then has yet another litter introduced(wholesaled) into culture contaminated with a fatal disease.

The Control position/degree/level will never change,it isn't a matter of "feeling" its in your face Where Your At !
Truthfully there is no "humane" method of dispatching infected animals,the most gruesome are in fact the most effective.
Your necro is complete,your peer response is complete.Failing to act or handle this throughly is your choice.aka:Control

My Sympathies and Best Regards,

>>Thank you to everyone who responded. I have more clarification and more q's. Midnight was necropsied by Eastern Exotics in Fairfax, VA. Some 20 tissue samples from just about every major organ and system was sent to the Univ of Georgia College of Vet Med Infectious Disease Lab. IB's were seen in almost all tissues, but especially in pancreatic acinar cells and the epithelium of the kidney, respiratory tract and intestines. "Comment: The histological findings support the clinical diagnosis of IBD." There's a lot more, but if I can't get 'Dr. Mom' to translate it for me tonight, I'm going to call the vet back and ask. Someone here suggested a second opinion. How would we do that? I'm not sure who has the samples anymore or if they can be rechecked.
>>
>>We are not planning on bringing anything new into our collection--well, not anything boid or python. My bf may still be dreaming of a kingsnake or rat snake. However, if, hypothetically everyone is born and born health, and we're looking at at least possibly 40 new babies....we can't possibly keep them all. I can't handle the two we have on my own...
>>So if "nothing in, nothing out" what you're saying is to see about having them aborted?
>>Q: If the mothers were tested, either by biopsy or necropsy, and tested negative-- would that give our babies a clean bill of health? Or might that just be a false negative?
>>TnK, your comment about being "in control" when that's the last thing I feel, was a slap in the face. It's a good thing I like face slapping. Thank you. It might make having the babies put down easier.
>>But it still sucks and I'd still appreciate input, comments, suggestions.
>>Antigone
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TnK

I think that you can trust your diagnosis based on the vet you went to and the diagnostic lab that the samples were sent to. If you were dealing with a vet that saw mostly dogs and cats but would see an occasional exotic, and you were unsure were your samples were sent then a second opinion would be your next step but I do not think that is required. If you still want a second opinion you could try Stahl exotic animal veterinary services (http://www.seavs.com/), or the Virginia Maryland regional college of veterinary medicine (www.vetmed.vt.edu). Since you had a positive animal and this is a highly contagious disease your breeders are likely infected. Nobody knows exactly how this disease is transmitted and then there is no way of knowing if the babies will be affected. It would be unethical to sell (or give away any babies) since they may be resold to a buyer that is unaware of the situation or end up in the hands of someone that is unaware of their IBD status. As unfortunate as it may be to put down 40 babies, it would be worse for those 40 babies to end up infecting MANY, MANY more snakes.

just my $0.02
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Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

Thank you all again.

I have a call out to the vet for price checks and available dates. We are currently considering putting Odin down after Xmas. My bf is considering whether he would want one of Midnight and Freya's babies; if so, we may let her go to term, figure which, if any, we want, and euthanize the rest. We are also asking for costs of aborting/spaying Freya, and possibly tacking on biopsies. I'm still trying to figure out if I can handle Freya or if I should just stick with our ball python.

Hopey, our ball, has recently been refusing food, though often appearing interested enough for me to thaw it, and seemed a bit hyperstartled the other night when I went to pick her up from a slither around the living room. I don't want to be seeing IBD everywhere, but I'm going to ask the vet about her too.

Happier and Healthier Holidays to everyone and their critters, legless or otherwise,
Antigone

Boas can live a long time with IBD, because it can lie dormant. However, if your Ball Python gets it, it will die.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

May sound callous, but the only responsible, ethical, and humane thing to do is have them euthanized via a heart stab from the vet. They'll use something along the lines of sodium pentathol, and it will be painless, and over in seconds. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT use CO2 on a reptile. It does not work the same as a mammal, and your snakes will most assuredly suffer a painful death.

It's immoral, and completely unethical to sell these snakes at all with a know deadly contagion present in your collection.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

with the vet, I'm feeling a bit stupid. The girls are too far along. Putting them down now will not automatically kill the babies as I had hoped/thought. Mom would die, and babies would still be alive. Messy. Indiana Jones III (or was it II) dinner scene kinda messy. Spaying while aborting late term might also be too messy and risky; and trying to throw in taking biopsies, means cutting open much more than doing either procedure separately, and again is too much risk.

So both will go to term. Odin and most (except one?) of the babies, hers and Freya's, will be put down --babies in bulk-- and what and how much more we do to Freya is still up in the air. I'm still getting quotes on spaying and biopsies (as separate processes).

ho ho ho.
Antigone