Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings:
I live in a house-hold of 2 pregnant female red-tailed boas and a femle ball python. We recently had our male red-tail put down for a URI and because there was a suspicion of IBD. IBD was strongly confirmed in the necropsy. We are looking at putting down one or both of our red-tails, and aborting or euthanizing the impending litters.
The ball is approx 2 years old, and we got her in May. She was not always kept in a separate room from the others, though she was never allowed to co-mingle directly with the others---cos she's only little We got her onto frozen juvy rats and she's been a pretty healthy bi-monthly eater, even to the point of striking at the prey being lowered in. I was even feeding her 2 per feeding. In the last month or so, she has only eaten 1 rat, and has refused at least 2 others, even when I left them overnight. Though looking interested enough for me to thaw food, she is no longer striking, and is actually avoiding food offered. I was surprised she ate the one she did. A couple nights ago, she seemed hyperstartled when I picked her up from a living room slither (she was getting cold), and rather than curl in a ball, she was flaily and tried to slither away. I even thought she might bite.
I know balls can be picky and go off food. Would it be normal for this time of year?
Are males more likely to defend themselves in ball-shape than females, or is Hopey's flail and slither abnormal?
Am I being IBD paranoid?

Thanks for your time,
Antigone

IBD has star-gazing and other distinct symptoms. The snake will actually look sick, rather than stressed, which is what yours sounds like.

The ball should never be with other snakes, anyway, because they tend to get really stressed when combined with other snakes, of any species.

Your snake sounds like it's just stressed. I'd double check all your husbandry parameters - things like temps, humidity, etc, just to make sure. Since there's been the outbreak of IBD, there may have been more foot traffic, more people around, significant changes in the house... That kind of stuff can stress out a ball python enough to stop eating.

I would leave the snake alone completely, make sure it has plenty of hides, and then offer it food just once a week at the normal time. Once things calm down at your place, the snake should go back to eating.

~Jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

...it will almost certainly die within 4-8 weeks. Balls are extremely susceptible to the virus.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Like I said in my post on the Boa forum, If that Ball Python had a inkling of any inclusion body overload it would be very much dead, or dying. Pythons don't hide IBD well, and it doesn't take long after the symptoms start. However, as I also stated, have biopsies done, get a second or third opinion, and go from their. Waving the IBD flag is very complicated, as the definition of Inclusion Bodies is very broad making an exact diagnosis very difficult. As you can tell, I don't like the term "strongly suggests". Too vague for me; yes, no, or "undiagnosible" works out better in the long run. Matter of fact I remember some people that had IBD in their collections using Ball Pythons as a sort of Litmus test for how fast it was being spread.

Hi:

No doubt, our male red-tail had IBD through and through. However he never exhibited the classic neurological signs and was still a pretty good eater. He succumbed to URI and fibrosis in lungs and vessels. The necropsy showed enteritis and breakdown in the digestive tract especially the intestines. But we never saw external signs for THAT. We just saw the wheezing and labored breathing.

Good to know that if Hopey gets it, we'll know quick.

Antigone

There are other things that can show up in a necropsy and look like inclusion bodies.

The MOST reliable, biopsy is taken from the liver. In fact you can do a live liver biopsy of the other animals.

Not showing ANY symptoms, yet being "conclusive" do not fit. As I mentioned on the boa forum, get a second opinion. However in the mean time treat everything as contaminated and expect the worst.

The Ball Python WILL die if it has IBD. And there is nothing you can do about it.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

...now I'M paranoid about it!

Can we have a quick FAQ about this? How is it transmitted, do you know?
What are the symptoms in ball pythons, if there are any? Other than the guarantee of death, what can one expect with balls that get IBD? Is there a way to prevent an entire collection from getting it?

And, just as important, is there a link to a site that I can bookmark as a reference in the future?

Thanks!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

IBD is not airborne.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

Then it must be ingested, or bodily fluids exchanged, unless it's a super-bug and can go through the skin? So things like water, food, anything the snake might touch with its tongue...Must all be kept clean and/or sterile...
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

One good info page:
http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
and for a first-person account with Ball pythons http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html

I'll keep looking for something more recent.

Antigone

Hi.

They took samples of EVERYTHING, and found the eosin bodies in EVERYTHING. The vet said that I was welcome to get a second opinion, but that Univ of Georgia was pretty good with exotics and the amount of sample taken and sent pretty extensive. She seemed to think that if I wanted a second opinion, my money would be better spent on finding out more about the risks of transmission, rather than questioning the results of the necropsy.

The three vets handling our animals have pretty much said what everyone on the boa forum said-- no more in or out. They don't like putting down animals not showing signs of anything, but there is NO way that if we have a total baby count of 20-60 in January that we can keep them all. We were NOT trying to breed, and were actually getting ready to reduce.

I love my ball python,
Antigone