Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey FR! Any chance that you could post a couple of the Crotalus "molossatrox" that you keep referring to? Would really like to see those boogers...

Thanks!

Happy herpin'...

MP

Please tell me what seperates this animal from other molossus... I believe I know what you are going to tell me, just want to be sure before I post some pics...

Thanks! (Especially to Damon, who throughout this whole process has shown a remarkable ability to not respond to personal attacks...)

Happy herpin'...

MP

THAT would cause me to pause and take as many photos as possible. C'mon, a BLACKTAIL with a coontail? I would voucher that puppy and send it in for sure. I don't have the experience of MOST of this board, but I know a diamondbacked when I see one! THAT ain't either IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, lol! I too would like to see photos of the hybrids, I have seen a few that Joe has seen, I was there with him, but I will have to hunt and peck to see if I took any pics, wasn't looking for them and thought them common for the area. Damon, they are out there, and I get more experience every year. I will remember to bring you some things to look at.
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Todd Hughes

Please do take photos or save them for me to look at if I happen to be down there. I've spent a lot of time on that prairie over the last 12 years and I've never seen one that would make me take pause. I'd be more of a mind to buy the theory if I'd seen "tweeners", but thus far (at least for me) it's been a one or the other kind of deal. If the sample size wasn't so large I wouldn't be so skeptical.

I've seen a few "suspect" snakes in my time-but I agree with Todd-I'd voucher that one!
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

this forum... but anyways...
Surely some of the "alterna" nuts that frequent the Chihuahuan Desert have seen molossus with bands on the tail?!
O.K., O.K... you can stop laughing now - I am serious about this. It is not uncommon for juvenile molossus to have banded tails. This is not just limited to the Northern Blacktails either. I am talking about the species as a whole. You can't tell me that wherever you see a "banded" tail on a molossus, it is a hybrid, or even a second/third/soforth generation hybrid.
I am not saying that animal that was posted is not a hybrid - it might be... just not convinced that all the banded tailed molossus that pop up are hybrids...
I am just saying that pattern anomolies can pop up - what in the world did the "patternless" atrox come from? It has a black-tail!

Interesting topic for a bunch of "bass-bait" hunters! LOL!

Happy herpin'...

MP

"Bass bait" hunters!!!!!!!!!!! Now thats funny! LOL. BA

Bass bait, actually thats what we called Albino stripe kings when I first hatched them.(I was the first to hatch them) A pile of them surely looked like bass bait and I bet it would work too.tgg

And your right, a banded tail has some meaning but is not the sole reason for considering that individual a cross. It has many other odd characters as well.

From the odd spacing and shape of the makings, to the lack in intermediate markings, to a very reduced head pattern. It also appears to have odd scalation and odd tail lenght for a blacktail.

But, we did not catch or preserve that animal. I have some strong reasons for leaving them be. A simple example for that is, there use to be a flycatcher that lived in So. Az. but it disappeared. Some fifty or so years later, some biologist found a nest with nestlings, not that long ago. They preserved the whole lot, mother and babies. Guess what, we again don't have that type of flycatcher, still.

If that snake is a natural occurring hybrid, wouldn't it be STUPID to remove it and not observe the natural effects it could have. Well I think so. Besides, we harrass enough snakes, you know, the actual species we are working with. I imagine if some interest pops up and folks are actually interested in this, we could take tissue samples for DNA. ALso as we mentioned, it does not appear rare. We see a couple a year and we are NOT looking. I imagine if we actually looked, we would see more.

And yes, I found pics showing the normal blacktails(the vast majority in that exact area) and at least one more oddity. I also have a couple of pics of this type of oddity from one other local.

For your consideration, we see blacktails all over. But these oddities are ONLY were they overlap with diamondbacks. Our studies are on montane rattlesnakes(leps and willards) we have two study sites, in different mountian ranges. We see lots of blacktails in and around those sites. But we have not seen this variation. (again, not seen, lack of data)

Some more to think about. Both of the sites where these goofy possible hybrids occur are relatively high. Not a normal habitat for diamondbacks in our area. Both oak woodland. Normally our oak woodland borders grassland in this area. The grassland is keen with mojaves(Mohaves). We do see their ranges overlap. But we have not seen a hybrid of between those. But both HKM and I worked at the ASDM. and years ago, they had a Mohave/blacktail cross(WC).

Also, consider, HKM and I are not being smart alecks or any such thing. We have been dumb as a stone on this subject. Both of us, or at least me, as seen some captive blacktail/atrox crosses, and we should have recognized what we were seeing in the field.

The actual point of this whole thread is very simple. Hybrids may not appear all that odd. And could easily be included within a normal range of variation. That that INCLUDES first generation hybrids. After the first generation, they most likely could not be identified without lab work.

The actual problem with Damon is simple and basic. He said he has not seen them. I have to ask, how does he know that? Its very possible, with a sample of 1200 or whatever he said. That lot could have easily INCLUDED hybrids, but he did not identify them as such, he called them normal, within a normal range of variation. Again How does HE know that? Did he actually inspect them all closely? Or did he do what we all do. Either toss them off the road, or let them cross on their own? Without taking a second look.

They were simply whatever he called them. What super powers does he have to KNOW they were not any hybrids included in that group. How do you know an odd individual is normal or a hybrid?

No offense, but I know how often I have overlooked some BLARING event, that I have seen a thousand times. Even things that a blind chimp would recognize. One example is, on our study site, we have worked leps and willardi. Our study has been going 19 years or so. The first 8 or 10 years, we rarely found gravid females(dropped enlarged ovum or embryos). Then one day, I pointed at a female and said, shes gravid. We tube them and its so very easy to palpate them. From that point on, we find gravid females(30% to 50% of the total we see) in each and every month of the year. Hmmmmmmmmm how can that be? we go through the records. We found the same numbers in the same places, the same sexes, yet we did not recognize them as being in reproductive mode. And, I am a captive breeder of reptiles. Its what I do. How did I miss that. Truth is, I could give a crap how I missed it. We now commonly find reproductive females year a round and in high number. So, whats important, that I missed it for so long. Or that we not see it for so long? When I missed it, we had LACK OF DATA that was right in front of us. Now we have DATA. Consider, thats only one example, a funny one, but just one of many.

So Damon thinks of himself as the expert on what these snakes are(what he calls them is fact?). I am not sure about that. Or is he that much better then I, or HKM? he could be, but I actually think its something hes not familiar with. I think most of us would not know a hybrid unless we are beat on the head with one. Thats the point. Cheers

"So Damon thinks of himself as the expert on what these snakes are(what he calls them is fact?)."

..and yet I don't hear you saying "we've seen animals that appear to be hybrids", you say "we've seen hybrids".

Hello Mr. Pot, I'm Mr. Kettle.

PS. I've never claimed to be an expert... I just shared my observations.

No respect at all!

Lets just get down to it.

Personally I think you are not looking deep enough. You simply do not know what a hybrid looks like. So most likely, if you have seen one, you called in a normal. Sir, that has happened all the time. That you do not consider(look that up) that you could be wrong, and hybrids may not look all that different, is something for you to figure out for yourself.

I will speak for HKM and myself in saying, someone needs to take a serious look at this as there "appears" to be something going on. Again, what we have seen raises more questions then answers. Cheers

I appreciate your opinion and you may indeed be correct. After seeing the series of molossus you've posted, I get the feeling that we may be seeing similar things and just drawing different conclusions. I still can't shake my impression that nature tends toward diversity and away from consolidation. I as Erik and gratefuldead, have seen molossus with banded tails in areas of southeastern NM devoid of atrox. I know you've indicated that the banded tails aren't the only diagnostic that helps you make the assessment what appears to be a hybrid but that trait certainly seems to be less nuanced than the others. Until some sort of work is done, we can't say either way but I appreciate the opportunity to hear your take on the situation.

Now we are getting somewhere. I said all along, the blacktails were QUESTIONABLE. Nothing difinitive.

The blacktail series is only an investigation. We are simply keeping track, until we find something more difinitive. Which is what we "SHOULD" have done with the Mohave/atrox animals. If we would have done that, we would not be having arguements.

Have any of you found those lite backwards patterned blacktails. I know the lover elevation blacktails can be different, but these are not them. These show some pattern deversity. Have you seen these? remember, these are a minority within the normal patterned and colored group.

About nature and such. Its my opinion you are making tooooo much of this. My feeling is, these things come and go. As nature is ALWAYS testing for new oppertunities.

In the old days, folks would rag on and on about if someone turned a pyro/greeri or any of those loose in our mountains. You know like it would have some delerious effect. Heck, you could turn loose 50 greeri in our mountains and they would disappear quicker then a drop of oil in the ocean. As long as there is a healthy population, those greeri would simply be absorbed and disappear. NOT that I would ever test that. Its just that the numbers are far to great. Say the Santa Ritas, Lets estimate there are a million pyros, and surely there are far more. 1000000 to 50, those 50 are history.

You need to consider, nature is always producing oddities. Like melanistics and albinos, and odd patterns, etc etc. They simply are absorbed and lost.

One of our arguements was how common these types events are. I think they are fairly common, but disappear quickly. As they are not being selected for. In odd years, too hot, cold, wet, dry, they may compete a little better, but as soon as things return to normal, they will disappear again. Only to be tested at a later date.

Also about "not seeing something" again that does not mean they are not there or not occuring. It only means you did not see it. Which leads you to speculate, assume, and theorize etc. But surely you must understand, not seeing them, is simply that. You can go out next summer and see three, then you will say, whoops. And that whoops is all you need to say. Because no matter what you or I said, if it happens, it happens. That is called a theory buster. hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

By the way, I found a hybrid horn lizard and an albino. I also found a hybrid scelop, in fact two in the same area. Also in the exact same area the mohave/atrox occur, there is something nuts going on with coachwhips. A type is now that, that never was. Hmmmmmmmmmm we are all going down I tell ya. Happy holidays all

Merry Christmas Frank, looking forward to more in the New year!
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Todd Hughes

"Now we are getting somewhere. I said all along, the blacktails were QUESTIONABLE. Nothing difinitive."

You may have meant to say that, but that's not what you said...

"These hotspots had first(early generation) generation hybrids(crosses)."

"We did not call these odd diamondbacks hybrids/crosses, until they were found them in the same area of Obvious hybrids."

"These odd animals occured where we found hybrids."

"For instance, the area that blacktail/diamondback hybrid was found..."

To be honest, that was the vast majority of my beef... you couldn't claim you were seeing hybrids any more than I could claim I wasn't. What this all comes down to is that you're more likely to label something a hybrid or 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation backcross than I am. I attribute a broader range of variation to natural variation and rationalize most pockets of slightly different animals by attributing them to gene eddies. With what I've observed I cant quite get away from my notion that nature tends towards diversity and away from consolidation. I'd LOVE for someone to do work on this and try to decipher relative frequencies of occurence as it's something that intrigues me greatly. We may have different perspectives, but I appreciate the opporunity to hear your opinions.

I displayed more then just my opinion. I posted pics of animals that are indeed questionable.

As I said all along, you may need to refresh your memory, we did not dna test them. But at least one blacktail, is very questionable. Maybe two, unless you can show that lite reverse pattern animal/s are normal. All you fellas can say is, some blacktails have banded tails. Yes, I already knew that. But we have seen more then banded tails.

Yet, you have nothing but opinion.

The truth is, I could care if they are hybrids or not, they surely are not normal. Which in all respects is the same thing.

May I say this, the pic HKM took, appears more like a hybrid, then the ACTUAL hybrid that was captive produced.

Of course normal blacktails with banded tails means very little.

If I may say this again, what bothers me is, you state opinion, from lack of evidence(you did not see it) Yet, we saw all manner of evidence and we indeed posted some(very little of what we observed).

So no, are discussion is not equal. Your not providing anything more then speculation. Because you did not see it, you speculate it does not occur or did not occur.

To make it a little clearer, you stated you saw 1200 or so individuals. We have seen this much variation or questionable animals in less then 60 from that area.

The problem is, we are arguing about Atrox/mohaves and posting Atrox/blacktails?????) So much of the statements are taken from one and applied to the other. Which will do neither of us any good.

In the end, it makes no difference what you think or what I think. We at least are seeing something. And that makes a huge difference. Cheers

I displayed more then just my opinion. I posted pics of animals that are indeed questionable.

You posted pictures of animals that are indeed questionable to you. That doesn't make them hybrids.

Yet, you have nothing but opinion.

My point is NEITHER DO YOU.

"If I may say this again, what bothers me is, you state opinion, from lack of evidence(you did not see it) Yet, we saw all manner of evidence and we indeed posted some(very little of what we observed)."

I think we're seeing similar things. I just don't think most of the variation I'm seeing is attributed to hybridization. That's my opinion. To say that you're entitled to an opinion because you think you're seeing hybrids and I'm not because I don't think I'm seeing hybrids is enormously perplexing to me. Even what you're referring to as a "reverse patterned" molossus doesn't look all that odd to me. I know you've indicated that what you see in those animals is not the same sort of light, less saturated, minimized patterns sometimes seen on lower elevation blacktails but I've seen a number of very similar critters in xeric situations in west Texas and southern NM that I'd have trouble differentiating from yours. I'll dig through the hard drive archives when I get home and see if I can find some examples.

"So no, are discussion is not equal. Your not providing anything more then speculation. Because you did not see it, you speculate it does not occur or did not occur."

1.) AGAIN, I've never said it did not or does not occur
2.) You're not providing anything more than speculation either. Just because you saw "it" doesn't mean "it" is hybridization. Without proof you can't be as definitive in your assessment as you come off in your posts.

"In the end, it makes no difference what you think or what I think. We at least are seeing something. And that makes a huge difference."

AMEN!!

Again, I appreciate your perspective and am happy to include our discussion on this topic into my understanding of the issue. Who knows, maybe at some point in the future we'll be able to sit back and enjoy a new conversation over new information provided by new studies that may shed light on this issue.

PS. Where'd the 1200 animals come from?

>>I displayed more then just my opinion. I posted pics of animals that are indeed questionable.
>>
>>

So far I see nothing but 'opinion", speculation and guessing on your part. To say that your observations are on point and Damon's are not is absurd. Lets see your proof.
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Steve W.

Hey Frank,

You mention that you and Hugh have been studying lepidus and willardi for around nineteen years. That has to be one of the longest running studies on montane crotalids to date. Do you guys have plans to get a formal publication out of all the data you've amassed? I'd imagine that you have enough to make a worthy contribution on behalf of both species.

Rob Nixon

THE ABOVE FOUR ARE NORMAL FOR THE LOCAL IN QUESTION. The headshot if just for fun.


THESE TWO ARE QUESTIONABLE INDIVIDUALS, found exactly in the same local. One is the individual already posted, the other is from a mile or two to the west. Again, I am not stating these are Hybrids, I am stating, they are starting to appear like they may be. As in, very questionable things are going on, in a few locals.

This above individual is from a local continious to the above normals, this local has a whole lot of these. Yet, there is continious geneflow(habitat with blacktails) surrounding this local.

The above two are from a totally different mountain range, yet we have found this occur here as well.

If you notice the individuals with banded tails have a sorta reverse pattern. The diamonds are very ornate. And other "odd" characters.

The above blacktail is TEXTBOOK. hahahahaha whatever that means.

This individual is from a range thats intermediate between the textbook and the goofy/oddballs/possible hybrid group.

All of the above are from sites about the same elevation. Lowland blacktails are of a different color and normally have a higher band/diamond count.

Lastly, I am not calling these all or any, hybrids, from what we have seen some individuals have drawn a red flag.

The original discussion was with Atrox/mohaves(after the mohave desert) We have seen far more of these type questionable individuals and far more that appear to be hybrids, but unfortunately, we did not have camera at the ready. And that is so true, the camera was in the field bag and we were simply to dumb/lazy to take it out. Heck, NOW I have a better camera to leave in the bag.

I did find a couple pics of "odd" mohaves from the area in question, I could post them with some normals if your interested. But those odd ones are not individuals that are difinitive. Enjoy and cheers

Thanks for posting those Frank.

Hey Frank...

Thanks for posting that series...I'm curious which phenotypic characters that you are using to identify these snakes...I'm assuming it's:

- pattern aberrancies (intermediate patterns {to varying degrees}b/w mollosus x atrox)
- scale counts

...anything else? I wonder if they are hybridizing with scutulatus more so than atrox.

Also, as I've told Damon, I've seen several mollossus with banded tails in AZ and one in NM...

This one has a slightly banded tail...it's from Ruby RD...

This one's tail isn't banded, it's from the Chiris...

...and finally the same shot I posted before...

So here's my questions...would a hybridization zone be like an intergrade zone? In an intergrade zone, you have phenotypes that look like both nominate races, but ALL are intergrades with free flow and exchange of genes throughout the population...How would a hybridization zone be any different...?

Nice pics. And surely I do not have any answers as to what and why or how its compared to anything.

In my case, its a simple realization that hybrids are not so different, in most cases. Therefore, in most cases go under identified.

Also, as I mentioned, this is NOT a subject of interest. That is, we are finding these, while looking at other animals. We are not working with any of these hybrids. They simply keep popping up. In that, some are suggesting they are not normal. Also like you have posted, some may be so similar to what is considered normal.

Also as I mentioned, I do have experience hybridizing other snakes and some of those offspring could easily be mistaken as within normal of one or both of the parent species. ALso, what who these hybrids appear like if all successive generations were bred to normals????

Its this train of thought that makes me curious as to how common hybridization may be?

So, being curious, HKM and I, have recently started to take pics of these odd ones and pay some attention as to local. Our next step would be to collect a few of the most extreme.

Back to your questions, its premature to make any conclusions, when we do not even know for sure if they are Hybrids.

New to our collective understanding is, they can indeed physically cross with eachother, its been done in captivity. Which means its not a physical barrier(as was previously assumed) But must be a behavioral barrier that prevents hybridization. We also know that behavior can easily breakdown. All it needs is unstable conditions. In the area of these possible hybrids, an extreme(for us) drought has occurred for the last ten years(as noticed by the oak and mesquite dieoff last year). Thats for the blacktail/atrox area. The Mohave/atrox area had a HUGE fire burnt the entire area, due to the extented drought.

So yes, All I have is questions, and few answers.

Of interest, I have hunted all these locals for over forty years. Yet only in the last five, have I recognized these odd individuals. Or did I simply deny seeing them in the past? I do not know, that answer either, but we are seeing them now. Thanks for the pics. Cheers

I do speculate that hybridization occurs from a temporary breakdown in base behaviors. What happens with the offspring that may not have these behavioral barriers is a great question. Cheers

So then you believe that animals might start hybridizing as an advantage during times of conditional changes...right? Such as this drought...correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you saying that higher elevation animals might hybridize with lower elevation animals as a means of gaining an advantage of some sort? That's evolution for ya, but what I'm curious about is this: if these conditions that are taking place on a MINUTE scale in a geological and evolutionary sense...have happend before (and they almost certainly have on some scale)...why is it that these hybrids were'nt common in the earlier years that you'd spoken of. It seems that by your logic there would have never been a decade of drought during the entire 20th century, otherwise you'd have been seeing those hybrids all along. Then again, you might not have known to look.

Hopefully at least some of that made sense, ...

Hold on, I am not saying any of that, it appears your thinking that or you want me to say that. All I am saying is, IF behavior is the determining factor and it appears to be, and I personally think it is. It merely breaks down, allowing hybrids. I am speculating as to what may cause that breakdown. In fact, I do not think you even need a reason. I think shear numbers will all enough variation in behavior to have it occur. But added factors may indeed increase the percentage. Drought may indeed be a cause, or fires, or anything that disturbs the habitat.

About why now. It appears more common now, but that may not be the actual case. In an eariler post I mentioned that the ASDM(Ariz-sonora desert M) had several naturally occuring crosses in the early 70's and atrox/mohaves was one of them. They also had a totally striped Mohave. We went to that local and found two more. I also remember seeing others at some other zoos or private collections as well.

I also do not understand how you think they are/will is take advantage of something. I think it happens, and if the hybrids have abilities to survive, they will. But most likely they will simply be absorbed into their normal groups and or fail to maintian any identity. Cheers

Frank...

Thanks for your response. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm only asking questions...which is why I include words such as "right?" and "correct me if I'm wrong"...Just trying to be clear...

"Hold on, I am not saying any of that, it appears your thinking that or you want me to say that. All I am saying is, IF behavior is the determining factor and it appears to be, and I personally think it is."

You disagree with me and then repeat what I said in a slightly more allegorical way...that's a little confusing, but that's okay.

Eric showed a few pics of mollossus below that had banded tails yet are not sypatric with atrox...where does that evidence fit in?

If you look are OUR pics, the banded tail is not the only difference. I am looking at the color, pattern and build differences as well. I do ask this question. WHY did those folks photograph the blacktails with banded tails? was it an accident? is that the only blacktails they have seen? or because it was unusual and different?

As I said, I am not calling these Blacktails Hybrids. Just that some are questionable. In reality I did not even think about the banded tails as evidence. That is, until I actually saw a true captive produced Blacktail/atrox hybrid at our local show. Then my little brain said, hey, I have seen that before. hahahahahahahahaha. My epiphany was, dude, that hybrid is NOT SO DIFFERENT.

So we started keeping an eye out. And as you can see, we have seen more intermediated characters then just the banded tail.

If you notice those other banded tail pics, their bodies are absolutely normal, the only difference is a slight banding on the tail. Again, if you look are ours, ours have more differences then that. One individual almost appears to have a pattern based on large yellow spots going down the back. hmmmmm again that is not the most extreme I have seen, just the most with my camera in hand.

Or this one, that does that to a lesser degree and the bands on the last third of its body are fading out. Like a diamondback. Blacktails, normally darken on the last third.

Again, I am using the word normally, as there is a lot of variation. But, I also said, these individuals occur within NORMAL looking populations. They are an exception in their own population. Which raises the question, why? not matter what the answer is, why?

A little history, a few years ago, HKM and found an individual with a really banded tail. HKM took it to preserve it, if needed. In his search, he found that had already been documented, so he returned that individual to the exact spot we found it. Again, we never entertained the idea that it could indicate it being a hybrid.

As normal for the internet, folks take one character and base all their thoughts on that. Which is fine, but thats how many "events" stay undiscovered.

One other oddity is envolved. Where these lite colored, odd marked, banded tailed blacktails occur, is relatively high in elevation and both locals HAVE ATROX. Its not common to find atrox at or above the oakwoodland areas. Normally they are much lower. The majority of the locals we see high elevation Blacktails, they do not occur with atrox. The woodlawn type normally occur with Ariz blacks and mohaves.

Where I live(within 3/4 mile and on my property, we have blacktails, atrox and mohaves(plus tigers and sidewinders). Yet I have never seen these oddities here. They have always been clearly distint in color, pattern and other characters.

This may mean nothing but, I have hybridized a varity of reptile types. I have never tricked them(like many do) What I found without tricking(pheromone scenting) If the different species overlap in range with the other species, they would not hybridize. Like where I found thayeri and milksnakes together. But If I used thayeri that did not occur with milksnakes(high elevation) and milksnakes that did not occur with thayeri, they crossed without problem. The same went for varanids.

Whether this means anything, I don't know. But as someone who works with hybrids(at times) it is not so far fetched that it would occur in nature. Also as someone who as been in the field and around others who did the same, for nearly half a century. Hybrids were not all that uncommon. Of course, during that time, we found albinos and patternless, and striped of banded animals, and all manner of abberents as well.

Again, as I mentioned, these blacktails, are Just not right, but the mohave/atrox we have seen(but not taken pics of) were of no question.

The truth is, I do not and as a old time snake person, never cared what others thought or agreed with. If I did, I would have never pursued this area of interest. So when others want to, not agree, great, good on them. But what does that have to do with me and HKM and what we are doing? nothing. We will keep on, keeping on. Also if We(I) am wrong, I could careless, I only keep score of the times I am right, as being wrong is common and easy. The great thing is, I have been right a lot. Of course for you cup half empty folks. I have been wrong more. But I do not care about that. The truth is, its mearly something of interest. And its that that Keeps all of us in this for the long haul. I think those that have to be right, always end up short timers. Cheers

"Eric showed a few pics of mollossus below that had banded tails yet are not sypatric with atrox...where does that evidence fit in?"

Actually, it's not unusual at all to find animals with characteristics of a hybrid in areas where one or the other of the "parent species" does not occur. See the concept of "hybrid swarms"....For example, in most of the state of Florida you will be quite unable to find a "pure" Cuban brown anole, nor Bahaman brown anole-all are a polyglot population of hybrids.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Hey Frank...

There's no pressure on you to provide any kind of information since I understand that your info is just as anecdotal as any (as you explained)...I am just seeking a further personal understanding of what people have SEEN as evidence that these animals hybridize on anything other than a very small scale. I'm open to whatever, I just want to see it for myself (through pics and evidence) rather than just presume. Thanks for the explanation and keep up the good anecdotal work. Maybe you can expand on it in the future...

I think you only need to pay attention to what you see. Something I think we all fail to do(at times). I know I am guilty of ignoring individual gophersnakes, diamondbacks, etc. Simply because I am interested in other species. For that, I kick myself in the behind.

Good luck, Cheers

I've seen quite a few blacktails without blacktails. Mainly around the Peloncillos and the west side of the Gila NF north of Silver City. Both blacktailed and banded tailed individuals occured there...and there are NO atrox there. Only molossus and viridis. I'll try to dig up pics...

- 65/35 black tail

- banded

- mostly black tail

I have some more pics of Peloncillo animals but they are on a CD somewhere stored away. But yeah, I don't think any of those banded tail molossus are anything else but molossus.

Fabulous pictures Erik! Thanks for sharing.

That's what I was getting at...

...a coontail may not be agood diagnostic...

Do hybrids occur? At what frequency do they occur? Could that be one? Could you prove it just by looking at the photo, or even the snake in person? We've been going over those questions for over 50 posts and you are late joining hahahaha

Frank may have a blunt delivery (he's always been that way online) but there were quite a few "profound" thoughts in there. Take step back and realize we only live 50 or 100 years if we are lucky. Any one persons observations even over their entire lifetime are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. You can only be one place at a time after all. If you spend your entire life studying a single species, still you have only managed to glean a few more tidbits from a snap shot in time, a fraction of the overall history of a species that could date back 65 million years and cover a good portion of the SW USA and parts of Mexico.

When you start thinking about what had to happen between the time packs of Sauronitholestes langstoni were prowling Brewster county and now, debating the presence of hybrid snake species (that we all know occur!) is pretty silly. No doubt quite a bit of it was "verbal jousting" on _both_ sides.

Personally, I never doubted that it occured. For years I'm way past that and asking myself how and why? Think about the environment where these animals evolved, and not just in the last 50 or 100 years. We all know that most of time scuts find scuts and atrox find atrox, but when they don't we want to know what went wrong? Well did it something go wrong, or did something go right? The environment will dictate the answer to that question. Surely this process has been going on for millions of years. Entire species have been absorbed by larger populations, and then re-evolved again in response to selection and isolation. How much genetic material is contained in a single specimen? How many generations? Who is in the family tree? I have my own ideas and I haven't seen anything posted that would make me question my beliefs, nor am I interested in enlightening anyone
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

That just sucks, Joe! C'mon pick a side, I have, mine, lol! Dammit, Franks too far away to pick his brain, give me the all encompassing answer to the meaning of it all! And Frank, I would like to see the photos, if you have the time and desire.

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Todd Hughes

Hybrid or no hybrid, that snake is AWESOME!!!!

Wayne

Hey Damon...thanks for posting that. I don't believe that it's a hybrid...I've seen several blacktails with coontails...like this one:

Wow! That's very intriguing photo. Thanks for posting it.

Someone better run out and pickle that sucker... no doubt about it, eh?

Thanks for posting such a neat animal... even if it is JUST a molossus... LOL!

Great photo BTW!

Happy herpin'...

MP

Still woulda pickled it!

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Todd Hughes

...we actually had already preserved a younger specimen from that locality the year before. It was deposited into a museum.

I mean, when you see the first one that has a tail like that, your first thought is "Holy Crap! This is weird!"
Then you see another one like that in the Huachucas, then another in the Chiricahuas, the another one in the Peloncillos, then another one in Durango, then another one in San Luis Potosi, then another one in Nuevo Leon, then... well, hopefully you get the idea.

Happy herpin'... (and Merry Christmas!)

MP

BTW - my response was for Todd, and absolutely NO disrespect at all was intended... not that Todd is sensitive to things like that, just didn't want to come across as a butt-head as some have on this forum recently...

Happy herpin'...

MP

haha, no panties ruffled here! And for what purpose? To serve mankind, it's a cookbook!!! Ain't you never had fried pickled rattlesnake?
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Todd Hughes

Here is a diffrent locality of Molossus, i thought hell, scince you all are showing pictures, i might as well do so also. i have caught many from this locality and they all share some strange, if not uniqe differances, one is that there is a distinct differance in head size between the ones found at the bottom of the moutain VS the top. This is just a observation of mine, and i have caught babies, yearlings, and adults from this locality also.

this was Nigel the baby molossus, mouse eating machine..

Here is a adult from the same locality, roughly 200 yards from the baby that was caught

The animal below in situ

here is a adult female, notice the HUGE HEAD

another shot she was very calm animal, all animals where relased after bieing measured, a photo op, and loved on for 24 hours

Well, not all animals, i kept Nigel for some time, fed him, and everything, before he had to go away...long story.

This one was one i kept that had to go away with Nigel, this adult male was a eating machine even at over 3' long and WC

Thanks for looking guys!

Herptophile

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To you im just the crazy snake guy, but to some I'm a 'Herper'.