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I got this little girl from a pet store in south Fl. that a friend of mine owned back around 1988. She was a freshly acquired W/C animal that was very healthy looking, so I went ahead and bought her. She turned out to be the most easy-going elapsoides I've ever owned!. She didn't mind being held at ALL!, and I even took her places with me on occasion!

That's pretty much unheard of for these little guys!..LOL

She was a real sweetheart!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug,
Those Scarlets are great looking animals. And the little bit of history w/ them that you tell us about, makes them even more interesting. Cool posts.

Do you have any thoughts to elapsoides being reclassified?
To my layman eye they look more zonata like. We could call them the Eastern zonata. Only joking.

I was surprised to find that they intergrade w/ L.t.triangulum. I'd like to see that intergrade, have your ever seen a triangulum/elapsoides intergrade?

-Dell

>>Doug,
>>Those Scarlets are great looking animals. And the little bit of history w/ them that you tell us about, makes them even more interesting. Cool posts.
>>
>>Do you have any thoughts to elapsoides being reclassified?
>>To my layman eye they look more zonata like. We could call them the Eastern zonata. Only joking.
>>
>>I was surprised to find that they intergrade w/ L.t.triangulum. I'd like to see that intergrade, have your ever seen a triangulum/elapsoides intergrade?
>>
>>-Dell

Dell,...

I'm glad you like those little guys too!

One thing is for sure, they are definitely unique from many other milksnakes. I still don't quite understand how they got their common name "Scarlet King"!. Sure,..they are classified in the same genus(Lampropeltis), but I think many of the other subspecies would certainly be more deserved of the name kingsnake" way before the delicately built elapsoides, who knows what those guys were smokin' when they came up with the common name,....why not Scarlet Milksnake?, I certainly do agree with the subspecific "triangulum" name though.

To be honest, I have owned and bred a few coastal plains(temporalis) in my day, but have never seen a wild example of these except from photos. It's really funny that these intergrades are only found in a few isolated pockets, mainly around the northeast region. That's definitely one of nature's true "snake mysteries"! I can only guess that when this DOES occur in nature, the smaller snake involved here would be a male Scarlet,.....and the larger one would be the female triangulum, ...for it to be the other way around, it seems that the male triangulum would have to be very young, and the elapsoides female very large!..LOL.....who really knows though!

Certainly makes you wonder just what REALLY does go on in nature sometimes!

take care buddy!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

OK Doug, a few more questions for you.
Have you breed Scarlets and had them lay for you? And if so, what are the neonates like to work with? I would imagine that you would need a good supply of lizards, anoles, and geckos to get them to size to take pinkie and fuzzy mice.

-Dell

Hey Dell,
I have bred Scarlets. A side from their small size, they are pretty easy to get started feeding. Most start on pinky parts right away. Five lined Skinks are very commonn on the East Coast, and most stuborn eaters will take f/t skink parts with gusto! Here's a pic of an '07 male I produced. The babies are very large in proportion to the adults, and they grow very quickly, if given plenty of food.
-Phil

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Stand for something,
or you'll fall for anything!

LOL!....actually yes to all the above!........

I lived in south Florida when I had my breeders and had them lay, so having a good supply of anoles wasn't a problem at all. Man,....it's funny,....down there as soon as you open the front or back door, you have to avoid trampling on all the anoles!, they are literally EVERYWHERE you look!..LOL

As far as the neonates, they can sometimes be a real pain in the butt!,....just ask some of the other N.American milk guys here on the forum!. The yearly "timing" of things really seems to work out in a "Scarlet guys" favor though down there , as the tiny anole hatchlings are hatching out right when the baby Scarlet Kings are, and I could snatch tons of those up at will on any given day. Most folks have to go through some scenting tricks, etc..., but that's pretty much "par for the course"..know what I mean!?....after a while of doing this, most catch on and become decent captives.

I really was fortunate to have some adults that rushed up to the top of the cage to yank pinks out of my hand!,.....who could ask for anything more!..LOL

Well, take care Dell, and have a Great Holiday Season!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have heard other Florida Scarlet breeders having the same experience. All of my Scarlets are from North Carolina, and seem to be less picky eaters. I wonder if locale has anything to do with their eating habits? I have a feeling that the Florida Scarlets eat more lizards i.e. Anoles, and that Scarlets in northen ranges eat more rodents. The irony is that the Florida Scarlets get much bigger than the northern Scarlets. Something to think about?
-Phil
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Stand for something,
or you'll fall for anything!

Phil,.....that is pretty interesting,...maybe the constant warm weather plays a part as well.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"Temporalis" (the coastal plains milk) is currently (previously, now?) considered to be an intergrade between a triangulum and an elapsoides. This doesn't mean that if you find a temporalis in NC, one parent was a triangulum and one was an elapsoides. It means that the parents were a mixture. Along the periphery of an intergrade zone, the snakes more strongly resemble the "pure" subspecies (not really a valid idea in triangulum, but used for simplicity) due to a stronger genetic influence from them. Eastern milks and scarlet kings aren't the best example of how things work, so I'll break this down into parts and use western milks for an example. Now about subspecies...

Subspecies are not distinct entities in the way that species are, and many scientists STRONGLY suggest that their use be discontinued because of the false implications the subspecific name invokes. Species (reproductively discrete units, by one definition - there are others) tend to show clinal variation in characteristics over their geographic range. When these characteristics remain relatively stable over a defined area, a subspecies is named. Where the characteristics of one of these named populations blends with the characteristics of another named population, an intergradation zone is said to occur. The populations freely interbreed (intergrade) and exchange genes.

The above is more easily exemplified using L. t. gentilis and L. t. multistrata than triangulum and elapsoides. The characteristics of the milks living in southern WY and northern Colorado are a blend of gentilis and multistrata traits. Some animals will more strongly resemble one or the other, and some will look like a perfect mix - that's the fun of genetics! As you move North or South, the influence of multistrata or gentilis, respectively, becomes stronger.

Triangulum and elapsoides are quite different animals... I think we can all agree. Some recent genetic work I've heard about (not yet published) indicates that they do NOT intergrade and that "temporalis" don't share genetic material from both. We could expect a revision of Lampropeltis triangulum in the next few years that splits elapsoides and gives it species status. It's not my work and is yet to be published, so that's about all I can say on the matter.

Sorry if this was long, boring, and confusing. Here's a few photos to make up for it.

Wyoming multistrata

Colorado gentilis

Intergrade gentilisXmultistrata

-Cole

Great looking snake, Doug! Elapsoides are awesome.

-Cole

Thanks buddy!,....and I couldn't agree with you more on your post about "temporalis"!

Have a great Holiday Season!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

One day I'll get some scarlets

Glad you like these little dudes!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"