Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ackies?

The common practice is getting a group when they are young and they usually turn out to be 1.2, 2.4 etc. I know this is not an exact science but I know guys like Frank or Robyn must have some idea at what age/development stage they start to become a gender and stay that way. I know getting them right out of the egg would be best of course.

there are a bunch being kept together at about six/seven inches and 2 months old. still a good idea to go for a trio of them and at least have a chance of a 1.2 or at least not 0.3 or 3.0?

Thanks guys

"...at what age/development stage they start to become a gender and stay that way"
Monitors have sex chromosomes. Sex is determined when sperm meets egg at fertilization. Figuring out which ones are male and female when young is tricky. The odds (if you know how to calculate simple probability assuming 50% chance for male and 50% chance for female) go way up the more animals you have in your group. It's that simple.

I detect sarcasm, but I'll ignore it.

It is common (or at least in all the information I've run into) that when ackies are kept together from younger ages, they usually turn up in female heavy groups. That is not 50/50 and it is NOT that simple

Yes, that scenario is true for most animals. But there are definitely types (I believe frogs especially) that can go from sex to sex in same sex environments.

Monitors do not change sex based upon groupings. I wish they did!

I know how science likes to compartmentalize everything and have everything fit into nice little boxes. But, I have been producing lots of monitors for a very long time, since 91, with monitors hatching on a weekly basis. And over all those years, I have raised up group after group after group. And as long as I left them in groups(not mucked with the group), I have never, ever recieved all one sex.

To have something to compare to, I also have produced lots of snakes. Yet with snakes, we commonly have whole clutches that are all male or are all female. Luck of the draw predicts 50/50. Which if your a gambling man, you clearly understand that means runs of all one or the other, over short periods. Yet with monitors, over LARGE numbers we have always had both sexes in hundreds upon hundreds of clutches we have raised up.

Just to make it current, I am raising 12 different clutches as WE SPEAK. And so far, all have both sexes. Someone HAS TO EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. ESplain it please!

I understand the sex chromosone thing, but that does not prevent this type of event from happening, as it does not prevent many reptiles from have their sex manipulated with temps.

So until one of you fine gentlemen can explain this to me, I will hold judgement. And that means, one of you fine gentlemen will have to be successful enough to actually have experience(numbers) with the animals. I know, that is rude to ask, but would any of you take advice from people without experience in any other area??????? In my experience, the results are prejudiced by something. Cheers

Frank,

I've had two experience with large groups so far. I bought 10 ackies years ago as hatchlings, raised them together, that turned out to be 9.1.

About a year ago I bought 6 Pilbara, raised them together from hatchlings that were all male.

I'm a doubter!

You bought groups, hmmmmmmmm were they from the same clutch all the time? or were they picked thru before you got them?

You see I have intimate knowledge of my monitors, because I did the hatching and "know" what was what and when.

You see, when you buy them from others, the results are prejudiced(mucked with) Cheers

At such a young age that separating them out to get pairs, or trios would be easy. I know of people who have then sold the big group of males left over to some unsuspecting guy looking at the great low price you are offering the leftovers for.
I was at a show a few times in the past where a certain vendor showed me in a well lit glass container how he separated 1 week old yellow ackies. I guess with enough experience you could do it younger. Just as many people do with beardies, some as I could, at birth.
So your groups are not accurate examples. I have in the past found more female ackies available in small groups than males sometimes.

SHvar,

I bought my group of Ackies over 14 years ago when they were very uncommon. My original group of Pilbara were purchased 8 years ago. The Ackies came from a good friend of mine and there weren't enough animals back then to sort.

They represent my experience very well. In addition, I've had the same experience with other lizards, such as Cyclura, that I've owned and bred.

With all due respect, I'm not buying that fact that monitors can change sex after birth based upon groupings. Please show me a picture of a male that became a female after being placed with a male or group of males. Until then, this is wishful thinking in my opinion. Sorry FR, I'm not with you on this one.

hold on, I never said they change sex. what they appear is, all female then develop into males from there. What I wonder about is, what kicks in the male chromosone and when.

You do understand that is it was a simple "determined at fertilization" Then all males would become obvious at the same stage in live. You know, a certain age and size. Which does not appear to be the case. Some individual males are EASY to determine at an early age, others are not. Some are full on adults before they exhibit male characteristics. Some males never develop secondary characteristics(he/shes)

And I would not expect you "to be with me". I have only raised hundreds of monitor groups. So you could not possibly have my experience or be with me. Please do not take that as a cut or offense, it simply is what it is. Its just something for you to think about.

What is hard for me to understand is, why you feel like you have to agree or not. My main concern, is that you keep an eye out and see how it works for you.

Of special interest, on our site, I have posted many many small groups of the last few years and we have ALWAYS had both sexes. With many species as well. The question may be, WHY is it working for me. ALso, when I say it works for me, I mean, the females bred with the males and produced babies. Generations upon generations.

ALso, no offense please, but you admit to not being good at sexing them. Are you sure, what sexes you had? This thought becomes very important, as so many talk, yet they are mere beginers.

Like with so many things, I really could careless about this subject. Which means, I have no stake in knowing one way or the other. As I actually keep, raise, and produce monitors, on a regular basis. And we do not have problems raising groups that have always included both sexes. So I frankly do not need any more explination then that. I understand that makes many mad, but I do not care about what science or theorist say. My stake is with producing babies, and I continue to do that very well. My stake is recieving both males and females, and again I have no problem with that. So, I really could care what others not practicing this think or believe. Maybe, we are over a radon gas sink or something?

This indeed sounds like a country approach to breeding livestock, and yes it may be. BUT IT WORKS. So while I am the one that hatches monitors on a weekly basis, pushing two decades now, I have to wonder why those that don't, keep telling me I am wrong. If I am wrong, I love being wrong. Its working great for me. Again, I could be just very very very lucky. Either case, it works for me.

Lastly, I will ask, did you raise them seperately? Or in a group of ten? All the time? Or did you move them forth and back? My bet(only a bet) is, you did not raise 10 ackies together. My bet is, you raised them in small takes, a few per cage. Remember I am ONLY guessing, but its a common practice guess. That is what most do. Then you get impatient and move them forth and back. Am I close? Cheers

"Sex is determined when sperm meets egg at fertilization."

I'd say that's a pretty much cut and dried answer. A better question might be, "At what size do monitors (species???)begin to show physical characteristics of gender." I'm sure nobody knows any exact percentages of male to female ratio in any given species so 50/50 is probably the best assumption.

Yea, but what about geckos, and crocs, and torts, and many other lizards? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Its funny, but after all these years of raising up hundreds of groups of many species, it does not seem to be that simple.

I also wonder where the he/shes fit in, or the she/hes??

I also wonder about people for that matter, that line is clearly not all that simple. With people its suppose to be that simple, but somehow its not. With reptiles, they have a wide range of controlls, I do still wonder.

I could toss out of the results I have had and simply call myself lucky. Dude, but luck does not last over 16 years, does it? Cheers

There was a scientific paper floating around several years back about sudan plated lizards being able to change their sex. I know of other species of lizard in which definite females can turn to males in certain conditions.

There are known cases where humans would be one sex for 20 - 30 years and then change. And I strongly believe that it's related to whom/what they're grouped with.

For example: When I was born.......... (Ahh, I'll let ya wonder about that one for awhile.) Heeheehee!!!

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

That's what you get for ignoring those signs that said no fishing and no swimming on Lake Apopka ha ha ha. You're a herper, didn't you read those studies on Lake apopka's alligators? I wonder how many of those rich folks building all those houses on that lake will end up with daughters trapped in son's bodies and vice- versa. I hope they can afford the sex change operations after all those over inflated house payments they're paying.

Heck, we didn't swim in Lake Apopka 'cause of the gators, not 'cause of the pesticides from the farms. Eating the catfish all those years before the studies were done, I've got so much mercury in me that I don't need a temp gun, I'm a walking thermometer.

The gators are still holding strong in the lake despite the deformities, infertility, etc, of years ago. Less traffic equals less poaching, too. I rode out to the pumphouse on the farms when I was down for Thanksgiving and there were 7 or 8 gators between 4ft - 14ft. At least 4 were over 10ft.

And to tie all this in with this thread; I didn't bother trying to sex 'em 'cause I didn't know if they were all raised as a group from the start. Plus, while it's easy to sex a gator, it's not always easy getting to that point.

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

The ones in lake apopka are no where near as scary as those ones in lake jessup. Now THOSE are scary. way too many 12-14 footers in there for my taste. I know they say gators tend not to prey on humans but I'll take their word for it and stay out of that lake. Every time I go over that bridge I shudder to think if my truck went off it and it ain't because I don't think I could swim for it either it's just I think I'd be lunch. To keep this on topic, we know that the sex ratio of these animals is mostly male due to their size and the fact that they weren't raised together since lake jessup seems to be the dumping ground for a lot of nuisance gators lately and they are not dumped as a group.while on the greenway I also once saw an osprey flying off with what a first thought was a baby gator but as I got closer I think it may have been a baby iguana or monitor although I was doing about 75mph in a truck.