Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have heard of using a nebulizer to help get antibiotics like baytril down deep into the lung of snakes with Respiratory problems. How do you use them with snakes? Are there any kinds of nebulizers that are better to use with snakes?

You do not need to add anything to the nebulizer, and using 0.9% saline is excellent for respiratory infections. Nebulizers can be used to deliver antibiotics such as aminoglycosides to lessen the systemic absorption and reduce the nephrotoxic side effects although I would not use baytril in a nebulizer. There are no specific nebulizers for snakes, and they are cheap and easy to find. Just make sure you are getting a nebulizer and not a humidifier.
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Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

I'm going to apologize right now for this long post...Sorry.
Are there any other suggestions for antibiotics? I have a snake possibley two with severe respiratory infections.

The first snake I took to the vet because she had a lot of mucus. They did a throat culture and it came back negative except for a species of clostridium bacteria. Which was kind of odd seeing how it was from an airway. The vet had me treat for 10 days with metronidazole. Then 2 weeks later she was having seizures, muscle spasms and twitches, and an over all loss of motor coordination.

I took her to the vet clinic, but the original doc was not there because it was an emergency after hours visit. The doc on call said it looked like Inclusion Body Disease. 2 days later I had her put down because she could barely lift her head and she couldn't breath....she was limp in my arms after just the little bit of stress to take an x-ray to see what her lung looked like.

I had a necropsy done on her. The results were inconclusive; I was told it was because I had her euthanized. Now I have 2 other snakes one male that was also treated with the metronidazole who is also showing neurological problems. He is now being treated with baytril, but he has shown only a little improvement after treating him for the recommended 14 days.

I can't seem to find a good herp vet here. Now I have another guy that is showing the early signs of respiratory problems. I'm quarantining everyone and treating my whole collection like each one could be carriers. But I don't know what to do for the sick ones.

I just don't know what to do. The baytril seemed to help a little so I was thinking of trying the nebulizer with the baytril. Now I'm hearing that maybe the metronidazol is what could have caused the neurological problems and even the death of my girl. I have known this particular vet for years and he is awesome with my cats and dogs, but he isn't a herp vet. Now I don't know who to trust with these snakes that I love.

I'm in a rush for this reply, feel free to email me at jarico.spock@shaw.ca and I"ll be able to get back to you that way. I'll also try and get a for fuller reply later tonight. For now, try www.arav.com and www.herpvetconnection.com for lists of reptile savy vets in your area. What state are you in?

Ian

Metronidazole can absolutely cause neuro signs. Was it the metronidazole that caused the signs in your snake??? There is no way to know. Who did the necropsy?? Were samples submitted for histopathology? If so where were the samples sent?? In a thorough necropsy not only is EVERY organ and tissue visualized for gross abnormalities, but also samples of ALL tissue are taken to examine microscopically. Additional samples are also taken for toxicology, and cultures. If it was truly IBD them the diagnosis should have been made from necropsy samples. Euthanasia does not affect a necropsy (unless the animal is put in the freezer as a method of euthanasia, or is frozen before the necropsy). A VAST majority of necropsies done on animals are on animals that have been euthanized.
As far as the baytril goes... it is a great drug when it is appropriate to use. It has a very narrow spectrum and is only effective against certain bacteria. The main problem when administering baytril is local tissue irritation when injected. This is why I would hesitate to nebulize baytril as it may cause further irritation to lung tissue in an animal that already has respiratory problems. There are many other antibiotic choices. I'm not sure how the idea got started that every sick reptile has a baytril deficiency.
I would go through your collection very carefully and separate and quarantine any animal that may be sick. If they have RIs treat them accordingly. If they have neuro signs and they are on metronidazole stop giving it and see if the signs improve. if they are showing neuro signs and are not on metronidazole then find a good herp vet (or vet school) close to you. Keep them separated for MONTHS after any clinical signs resolve.
Good luck.
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Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

Thanks Doc you brought up most of what I was going to say. It would probably take quite a calculation error to OD all your snakes on metronidazole enough for them all to be showing neuro signs, but these things can happen. It's an outside possibility that I wanted to mention.

How many snakes do you have? I would quarantine all of them individually and as a collection; healthy or not. The combination of respiratory signs and neurological signs have ophidian paramyxovirus high up on the differential diagnosis list. Any future losses (euthanized or not) should be freshly sent to a path lab that is familiar with serpents. This is just as important as having a vet that is versed in reptiles. If in Canada, ask for the path lab is Guelph. If in the US you have more options, the U of Georgia, the U of FLA, Zoopath in Colorado (I think), are some of the better options, though I"m sure there are others. Talk to your vet, as samples need to be sent through them.

Good luck, it'll be a lot of work to contain this.

Ian

Thanks for the info Island-doc. In answer to your questions; the histopathy was performed by Antech Diagnostics in CA. I can fax you a copy of the histopathy results if you email me with a number. I don’t know if maybe there is something I missed and a second opinion would be much appreciated. The reason on the results that IBD was not ruled out was because I had her euthanized, which involved a shot to her brain, so the doc told me that the brain tissue was not submitted because it was all messed up from the euthanasia injection. That is odd that he would say that and on the histopathy results it states that the brain tissue was not submitted. It also says that “IBD inclusions in pythons are often not identifiable in any of the pythons organs.” If that is true then that is really scary that you can’t find out for sure if your python has IBD or not; especially if you have other animals in your collection to worry about.

I have read that about baytril, so that is why I opted to go with administering it orally. I have separated and quarantined the two sick animals in separate rooms even from each other. The metronidazole was stopped in the one male almost three weeks ago after I had my girl put to sleep. I have been soaking him every other day and also forcing about 1cc of room temp water down his throat because he is not drinking. He seems to be improving although his head still shakes a little. The RI is still about the same in him and of course getting worse in my big guy that I’m not treating yet.

The only reptile vet that I know of locally, I do not like; he runs an exotics clinic and treats the animals for the big chain pet stores, like Petco. The other doc in that clinic, I trusted, but he moved away about two years ago and I lost track of him. I’ve asked some of the other big snake breeders in the state and am still waiting for replies from some, but most have said they only know of good vets back east. Unfortunately I can’t drive that far and be back for school and with how cold the weather is I can’t ship either. So if there are any good vets for snakes that anyone could recommend out west I would be greatly appreciative.

In reply to joeysgreen, thanks! How much are we talking about for an OD on the metronidazole? I followed the directions on the bottle, unfortunately I don’t have the bottle in front of me to see what the dilution factor was, but I could get that info from the clinic. Only the two snakes that I treated with the metronidazole showed the neurological problems. The female died and the male’s neuro problems seem to be getting less and less acute the more weeks that pass after I stopped treating him with it. I have heard that metronidazole is flagyl and that snakes should only be given a dose or two, not treated daily as I was told to do. And that it should be treated more like a dewormer in snakes. So how do most vets administer flagyl or metronidazole? Are there any sources of good data and studies that have been performed with these drugs in snakes? I’m having a hard time accessing information (peer- reviewed, clinical information), but if I have some good sources I can go into the university after the holiday break and get some help from the librarian in accessing it. I did find some info on the IBD on the ARAV site. Also saw the list of vets on there. I’m in UT by the way. Ross Anderson is the vet that I have been dealing with and Dr. Orr is the one that I would rather not have touch my animals. I just hate picking names off a list and would rather go with one that has good recommendations. I’ll check out the other site you recommended, just looking at it briefly it seemed to have a little feedback. Thank you, Thank you THANK YOU!

I have just under 30 snakes in my collection so moving each into its separate room is not something I could do. I should have requested to have the U of Florida do the necropsy and histopathy; I loose another one that is exactly what I will do. I have decided both with the lack of inclusions found in the necropsy (even though it was inconclusive without the brain tissue), the improvement in the snake the treatment was stopped, and the lack of neurological problems in the snake showing RI signs that was not treated with the metronidazole, that IBD is not what I’m dealing with. But only time will tell and until then they are all getting treated like they could have it. I was planning on a 6 month to 1 year quarantine before anything goes in or out, as I had I few baby and yearling snakes that I was planning on selling. As for the sick ones how long after they are showing no signs should I continue to quarantine them? I for sure don’t want to spread around a respiratory illness that is, from what I can tell, unresponsive to baytril. Also again are there any suggestions for an antibiotic with a broader range than the baytril? I also have read that fungal infections also show symptoms similar to RI and can be misdiagnosed as unresponsive to baytril bacterial infections. Argh I just need to find a good vet. I’ll have to check out in Colorado I know the university over there offers a herp graduate degree. So they should have some good vets in the area, I hope. Thank you both so much for your responses. I’m just worried sick about it.

How odd for them to euthanize that way, especially when IBD is on the differential list. However, brain tissue or not, it is impossible to rule out IBD on any snake for the simple fact that it is unknown when/how/why inclusions are created, and it is always possible that they exist elsewhere in the snake but not in the sample looked at.

I have heard Antech is a good lab for this sort of thing, but I don't have any personal experience with them.

"also forcing about 1cc of room temp water down his throat because he is not drinking" you could probably increase this amount, and you might as well make this an electrolyte solution for maximum benefit.

www.arav.com breaks up herp vets by state. You'll find many in California, and if possible, go to Dr.Harkewizc at the Dog and Cat Clinic in Berkeley. Amazing guy; he's the webmaster for arav, so you can contact him that way too. --- just saw that you're in Utah. I don't know any from there, nor do I know of anybody from there. I think they do have a herp society don't they? Start looking for referals there.

For more information on metronidazole in reptiles check out Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery by Dr. Mader. I believe toxicity is more commonly seen in younger animals, or in doses even 10 times over the recommended. Generally, it is a pretty safe drug, though since the neuro signs are only seen in the animals treated, I might guess that a mistake was made in the concentration given.

With that many snakes, just try to treat each cage as it's own quarantine zone. Don't share food items, feeding utensils, hides, ect. Buy some quatsyl from your vet clinic, as this is the best viricidal cleaner that I know of. Just make sure to rinse well after cleaning.

As for the RI, it could still be many things, and a broad ranging antibiotic isn't always the answer. It is odd that the original tracheal culture only showed one bacteria, perhaps it has won the competition against all other bacteria. Did it culture strongly? Was a sensitivity test done? This will tell you what antibiotic will work best at killing it. Fungal infections are notoriously more difficult to cure, and will use different drugs. Of course, it is also likely that the sample isn't representative of the infection, and a lungwash will probably be more diagnostic. How many snakes in total have been ill? The more that are, the more likely that the root of this is a viral problem or a husbandry error. I'm assuming that you are versed in captive snake care for your species, but just in case, it's something worth mentioning to check.

For quarantine and snakes, I like the 1 year quarantine for previously ill snakes, but that all depends on the diagnoses. If the disease has a carrier state (ie, IBD), then permenent quarantine should be considered. Sometimes this just means selling/giving them to one reptile homes.

Wow, this is turning out to be quite a thread eh? For IBD stuff, also see the Odin threads below as it's been discussed at length there.

Ian

How are snakes typically euthanized? I will get some of the unflavored unsweetened pedialyte to use. I have actually used pedialyte in a bearded dragon with a sand impaction that I had when I was a kid with good success. I’m a member of the Utah Herpetological Association; posted there about vets and am waiting for a reply. I currently use chlorohexidine (nolvasan) and simple green as cleaning solutions. I’ll check out the quatsyl for use with the snake enclosures where they are showing symptoms.

You gave me the idea to take Zeke, my male that has so far been untreated, in for a throat culture and make sure a sensitivity test is done to see if there is any resistance. I will ask the doc about the lung wash as well. And to test for a fungal infection.

Three snakes so far have been ill. The first, my female I sent out for a breeder loan came back to me with the mucus that would clear up and then come back and was only slightly receptive to the baytril. That was a year ago and I quarantined her for almost 5 months after her last bout of mucus. I did get three baby boas this year that I quarantined for a few months. I had introduced them into my collection about three weeks before my female showed the mucus again and I was able to get her into the vet with the symptoms. The boas still seem just fine. I guess I could have an asymptomatic IBD carrier. I now know that boas and pythons shouldn’t really be kept in the same collections. The next was the male that I put in with the female to see if he would be interested in her at all (it was a little early in the season). Only a few days later I noticed her being sick again. Stress induced maybe? I separated them and both were treated with the metronidazole. The last so far is a male coastal I have had for 6 years and he is in a completely different room. I did just switch him from a display cage to a new Boaphile cage, so maybe the change triggered it and the timing coincides with the other two. I dunno. It has been almost three weeks since he started showing signs with a little bit of a shiny dried mucus spot on his back.

I have kept snakes for at least 10 years and carpet pythons for 6. I’m pretty good at staying on top of the temps and keeping my cages clean. I don’t have a snake room so the temps can be a little tricky when the seasons change. This is my first major issue with illness. That could be why I’m freakin’ out. Yes this is turning into quite the thread, but I’m so grateful to be getting some advice. Thank you Ian! I will post more as I find out.

"I'm not sure how the idea got started that every sick reptile has a baytril deficiency."

HA! It couldn't have been said better. Can I quote you on this one?

Christina
www.herptiles.net