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Pearl Island Boa (Saboge)

balls4all Dec 27, 2007 12:25 AM

A friend just added a trio of Soboge to his collection .
They are awsome ! Anyone have any experience with them?
Im considering trying to do some trading to get in on this project. What would be a fair price for a baby? Also would like some opinions on what to add to a columbian project? I would like to produce babies that are popular . This will be my first boa project as far as breeding goes. I want to produce something I will be able to move .........Not make huge profit just be popular enough to move . I have a 9ft 18 year old female and two 3 year old females and I was considering a jungle male baby this season to raise as a breeder. Thanks Bryan

a

Replies (28)

johnberry Dec 27, 2007 11:45 AM

Pearl Islands boas are normally very easy snakes. I've had about a 8 of them, both babies and adults and they were a joy to work with - easy feeders, easy to handle and naturally quite tame. Whatever you do, keep them pure and don't cross breed them with other locality BCI. There is a much bigger market for pure Panamanians than there is for cross breeds.

cheers, John
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www.johnberryreptiles.com
www.designermorphs.com - the most complete guide to boa & python mutations, morphs and hybrids

balls4all Dec 27, 2007 12:36 PM

Thanks for the reply John!
I have always kept boas but just recently have wanted to get a breeding project going. I have been breeding royals but always wanted to breed boas also. Im going to try to acquire a pearl island
trio and possibly some hogg islands. I believe due to their max size these awsome boas will become very popular. I was blown away by the irradescents of the pearls. I have seen many photos but seeing them in person was a real eye opener. Thanks Bryan

JaredHorenstein Dec 27, 2007 04:13 PM

THey are nt cheap snakes especially if you get legit animals from a verifiable lineage. Captive babies will run you between $2000-$3000 each. WHatever you do.....keep them PURE!!!

These are not worth mixing into other subspecies

Jared
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

TnK Dec 27, 2007 05:45 PM

Sad part is many people believe they have Saboge' when in fact their nothing more then Panamanian hypo's.Luckily many were tipped on that 200X import venture and backed off the purchase of those animals.We saved thousands of potentially lost dollars.
In this business its not who you know,its how well you know them

>>THey are nt cheap snakes especially if you get legit animals from a verifiable lineage. Captive babies will run you between $2000-$3000 each. WHatever you do.....keep them PURE!!!
>>
>>These are not worth mixing into other subspecies
>>
>>
>>Jared
>>-----
>>~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~
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TnK

Sun_King Dec 27, 2007 06:26 PM

Who tried to bring in Panamanians and tried to sell them as Saboge?

Joe

TnK Dec 27, 2007 07:43 PM

No trying to it,it happened.

>>Who tried to bring in Panamanians and tried to sell them as Saboge?
>>
>>Joe
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TnK

Sun_King Dec 27, 2007 10:14 PM

Shoot me an email and tell me who it is please. I want to make sure I keep my money in my pocket and not in some schiesters pocket. Thanx for the info.

Joe

ChrisGilbert Dec 27, 2007 10:46 PM

Read my post.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

ChrisGilbert Dec 27, 2007 08:45 PM

be thinking of the Sabogae that have come in on Panamanian shipments. There are other Islands in addition to the Pearl Islands that have Sabogae populations.

MOST Sabogae in the US are NOT from the Pearl Islands. Most are from the island of Taboga in the Bay of Panama. It, and the Pearl Islands are are under the control of the Panamanian government. And CITES export permits do not distinguish between Imperator and Sabogae.

Also there are NOT 200 or even 200 pure Panamanian boas in the US. Not even close.

The first shipment out of Panama in 2005 included 60 boas. I have a copy of the CITES if you would like to see the quantity. 3 of those boas were Sabogae. John Berry acquired them and I believe sold them to Vin Russo when he moved back to the UK.

Later in '05 another small shipment was sent out. I believe the numbers were in the teens.

Early '07 a 3rd shipment came in from Panama. That shipment had just 12 boas, and another group came in a few months ago, small group again.

I do also know a number of that first group of 60 animals DIED. I spoke with one keeper that purchased 3 pairs that later died.

Vin Russo mentions in his book that one shipment had come in, at the time of writing that was the case. By the time it was published there were a total of 3.

As you can see from these numbers there are less than 100 pure blood Panamanian boas in all of the United States. THAT IS IT!

The last shipment also included Sabogae. I have seen pictures of 2 of the boas and spoke with one friend who saw the entire group and said the all look the same (He is not a boa guy and doesn't know how to ID Sabogae). Scale counts were going to be done but I haven't heard results.

I do know that scale counts on the first 3 that came in from Panama keyed out to Sabogae. Not to mention they are textbook in appearance. Hypo Panamanian boas do NOT look like Sabogae, they look like Hypo versions of the mainland Panamanians. Also, the Hypos key out to Imperator.

I DO know that some Hypo Panamanians, and even REGULAR Hypos have been sold as Sabogae. And some Sabogae have been sold as Hypo Panamanians.

There is only one source of PEARL ISLAND Sabogae. Robert Meidinger was the ONLY person given LEGAL permission by the Panamanian government to collect boas from the Pearl Islands.

He runs a federally recognized zoo in Costa Rica. Zoocriadero World Snakes in Grecia, Alajuela, CR.

He has produced boas born in captivity in his facility and has obtained permits to export them from the Costa Rican government. He is also the only source of legitimate CR boas.

I believe one shipment of Sabogae have come into the country from his group, which would make them the only Pearl Island Sabogae in the US. I do know at least one shipment went to Germany, I do not remember the exact year but I think it was 2005.

That is the basic history covering the Panamanian Imperator and Sabogae boas of all origins.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

balls4all Dec 27, 2007 10:45 PM

Great post chris !
I will definitely be doing a bit of research !
Is there anyway by apearance to ID a true Sabogae ?
This is probably a stupid question but....Are these lines related? The shipments you refered to came through panama from a seperate line? So if I understand the panamanian hypo looks very similar to the pearl Island Sabogae and are a completely seperate line. Let us know if you get a confirmation on scale count. Thanks bryan

ChrisGilbert Dec 27, 2007 10:47 PM

Vin Russo has some good info in his book on the scale counts for Sabogae and Imperator. All the ID stuff.

This might help too.
http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/nss-folder/boapictures/PanNorm.JPG
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

JaredHorenstein Dec 28, 2007 10:15 AM

I am doing a Scale count on a group that I purchased as well as on some that a friend of mine got.

I also have one of the True Pearl Islands from Robert so I will do a scale count on that snake to run a comparison on of the other animals I got in.

Jared
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

TnK Dec 28, 2007 03:01 PM

Its already been done,the first skins dropped in the US were counted,so we already know the count.

>>I am doing a Scale count on a group that I purchased as well as on some that a friend of mine got.
>>
>>I also have one of the True Pearl Islands from Robert so I will do a scale count on that snake to run a comparison on of the other animals I got in.
>>
>>
>>Jared
>>-----
>>~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~
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TnK

TnK Dec 28, 2007 07:40 AM

Scale count isnt any different then any other "Central American" BCI ssp.Why should there be ?

>>Great post chris !
Let us know if you get a confirmation on scale count. Thanks bryan
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TnK

JaredHorenstein Dec 28, 2007 10:17 AM

Scale counting is one of the best ways to identify different subspecies. I guess you did not read Vin's book huh?
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

TnK Dec 28, 2007 03:04 PM

Sorry no patronization here.
I rely on sources that dont contradict themselves.

>>Scale counting is one of the best ways to identify different subspecies. I guess you did not read Vin's book huh?
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>>~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~
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TnK

wstreps Dec 28, 2007 05:46 PM

"Scale counting is one of the best ways to identify different subspecies. I guess you did not read Vin's book huh?"

Scale counts are virtually useless in identifying central American / island locales. That's what the book should say. I'll challenge any supposed authority out there on this and prove them wrong. Ernie Eison

Westwoodreptiles.com

TnK Dec 28, 2007 06:26 PM

Thank You Sir !!

>>"Scale counting is one of the best ways to identify different subspecies. I guess you did not read Vin's book huh?"
>>
>>Scale counts are virtually useless in identifying central American / island locales. That's what the book should say. I'll challenge any supposed authority out there on this and prove them wrong. Ernie Eison
>>
>>Westwoodreptiles.com
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TnK

ChrisGilbert Dec 28, 2007 06:32 PM

So are you going to say that scale counts are not going to differentiate between Sabogae and Imperator. Because, that I believe is the issue here.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

jscrick Dec 28, 2007 06:46 PM

There was a super fine Costa Rican posted FS Christmas or the day after. It went fast. Did one of you guys get it?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

ChrisGilbert Dec 28, 2007 07:35 PM

n/p
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

JaredHorenstein Dec 28, 2007 08:26 PM

;^)
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

jscrick Dec 28, 2007 08:34 PM

Have you gotten it yet?
If so, is it as nice in person?
When are we going to see some pics?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

PBM Dec 28, 2007 07:39 PM

Casual observer here, but here's the numbers previously listed

"BCI:Taxonomic data: Daudin 1803; fewer than 253 ventral scales; mid-body scale count 55-79 (Colombians have been found to have 80-84); 21 or more dorsal blotches (to vent)

BCS:Taxonomic data: Barbour 1906; scale count 65-67 dorsal rows; 214-247 ventrals; 49-70 subcaudals."

BCI-states FEWER than 253 ventrals-BCS 214-247... that is FEWER than 253
BCI-states scale count 55-79-BCS 65-67 again, that falls within this range
Would need the dorsal blotches and subcaudal counts to compare the other 2 stated ranges, but as a casual observer, these counts wouldn't differentiate the two. Simply because the BCI range is wide enough that from what I see, the BCS falls within those ranges. I'd also like to know how many animals were used to average out these numbers if I were to get seriously involved. If you have a sample size of 100 animals of one group and 10 from the other, it's hardly a definite range from which to make a definite ID. Basically, I mean the scale count range could increase if more animals had been counted from the BCS group since 65-67 is a pretty small window. Toss out some more details, I'm enjoying reading this stuff, though I have no intentions of getting into this "market" at all.

ChrisGilbert Dec 28, 2007 08:09 PM

Paul you are right that some of the ID ranges fall into BCI territory. But that was also why I mentioned the importance of keying out the Panamanian BCI that have come in. The count ranges within that population should fill a small segment of the BCI range, and could then be compared with the BCS.

I know Vin Russo did scale counts with his Sabogae and his Panamanian imperator. I don't know his results, though he said he was able to validate that the Sabogae were such.

I haven't done scale counts on any of our 4 Panamanian imperator. Though with this thread I sure wish I did.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

Ophidia_Junkie Dec 28, 2007 08:08 PM

>>Scale counting is one of the best ways to identify different subspecies. I guess you did not read Vin's book huh?
>>-----
>>~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

Not to fuel the fire, but I read his book. And I have emails saved from him that contradict some of what's in that book.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

TnK Dec 28, 2007 09:13 PM

Most of which FAR SURPASSES the context(bci strains) of this thread !

>>>>Scale counting is one of the best ways to identify different subspecies. I guess you did not read Vin's book huh?
>>>>-----
>>>>~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~
>>
>>Not to fuel the fire, but I read his book. And I have emails saved from him that contradict some of what's in that book.
>>-----
>>Richard Carew
>>Sunset BCI
>>You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
>>Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices
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TnK

ChrisGilbert Dec 28, 2007 11:15 AM

Scale counts do vary among BCI. That is why the taxonomy defines a range. You will notice clusters of identifying traits when you look at boas with known histories.

The Panamanian BCI will not differ much from other Imperator of Central American descent. However, the Sabogae will be different.

BCI:Taxonomic data: Daudin 1803; fewer than 253 ventral scales; mid-body scale count 55-79 (Colombians have been found to have 80-84); 21 or more dorsal blotches (to vent)

BCS:Taxonomic data: Barbour 1906; scale count 65-67 dorsal rows; 214-247 ventrals; 49-70 subcaudals.

You can see from the above data that BCI have a wide range as it is, this is due to their wide natural distribution. I would like to see the numbers for specific locales.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

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