Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok right up front I will say I was contacted by an investor clearly looking to make a buck and offering large sums of money to invest in my breeding activities, Its been a dream of mine to do this for a living and now that the dream is beating down my door I am absolutely lost, Ok for starters I post this here because said investor was fairly specific with his interest in the BP market. I have a pair but they are 07 individuals and nowhere near ready to breed so I have not even broken into the market yet. This person wants me to purchase proven breeding pairs, Currently I opporate from my house "Who dosnt LOL" This person wants to lease a commercial building for this as well as after inspecting my opporation said there is nowhere near enough room for what he has in mind here at my house. I am sorry but I must be hush hush about this person but I can say I have known them for 29 years and he is a good person and always thinks of animals before money. He says he is looking at investing in a local company and I was the first that came to mind do to our long standing relationship. I did put together a PP presentation and conducted it for the investor last week and that went over great but it was a general presentation about the pet trade in general and the expected growths in the coming years and past year trends. The deal so far that has been discuss was a 50/50 split on the investment, not on the business but just the investment. One of my biggest worries is I have worked hard to make a good name for myself in the local market and I worry about such a big growth or the problems that come with such a jump hurting the name I worked hard for. I 100% completely understand some may not want to advise on any possible competition but I am hoping someone can give some good suggestions on this idea. Thanks a million in advance and please understand this was an offer that is currently being considered and not yet put in motion, My intention is to gather as much information as I can before moving forward or backing out, Thanks agan
Foot Hill Reptiles

I didn't read the whole post.......some of it just threw me......anyways

PARTNERS DON'T WORK.......!! ask a lot of people in here that used to be a 2 or 3 person team...they split and it's usually not pretty......

.......breed your stuff...tell them to breed their stuff..........work with them but not WITH them totally.jsut trade with each other and sell to each other.you'll see how hard that is when you want $3 for the snakes and they want to pay you $1.275........think how mush of a pain it would be if you both owned the snakes and profits.....and work load.....

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I understand your reply completely and somewhat agree. The only thing is this person is not a snake person, they done and never have maintained one, For 29 years they have known me as the snake guy and clearly see my venture paying off for me, Dont get me wrong I dont even make a profit at all but the possibilities are there, This person has the money to do big things in our industry and for our hobby and simply want to give it to me to work my magic and get a piece of the pie at the same time. As I said before this person is an animal lover for lack of a better work I have nick named him "tree hugger" and this is all just a business venture for him, he dosnt breed because he knows I can and do it quite often and simply like I said wants to invest some money to make some money with what I am doing, as I said I have yet to enter the BP market and yes a number has been given to me that really makes my lips water. I wont get into that now and do not know what this sum would do in this market but know it can work wanders with what I currently do with Corn Snakes. Thanks a million for the reply.
Foot Hill Reptiles

you'd need a contract saying you'l pay him half or whatever of profits and if no money is made he will be SOL for the year and money will be repaid later.....?......you think..you think again and write it down.even think if he pulls out and wants his cash back......

...market...you can buy alot of good stuff cheap now......a little late ,,but still stuff out there......

......big girls are out there too.....people trying to get rid of them.....cheap enough.....not sure who's buying..I had a few lookers but no takers.....probably stuck with them for the year.....

......shop around.........names ain't worth crap....snakes are.......I don't care what people tell you......you can flash and blink and light it up,,even tatto their name on it's butt...,but it's still a ball in the end.....

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Wow, what a problem you have. To get a big jump with a investor or go slower and build it yourself . In my opinion and just my opinion.( Partners suck !)
My advise to anybody who wants to breed Ball Pythons for a living. Don't borrow any money, save up, get a second job. Don't ruin it with debt. But hey who am I. I have debt and 102 Ball Pythons. My biggest problem I didn't foresee. I don't want to part with the snakes I've produced. But you know what. I can't wait tell next year . Have fun and good luck . Claude

If the person is in it to make a buck, then I wouldn't do it. It is about the animals and not the money whether he is a "tree hugger" or not. Keep in mind that it is very hard to show profit and what is going to happen when it doesn't show fast enough and the backer is gone. Big money people like to turn money fast, and this is not a turn money fast deal.

Be careful and use good judgement. I am sure you will make a wise decision based on your years of experience.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

Gosh thanks a million for the replys thus far, they are 400% more positive than I thought I would get with such a post. I explained to said investor on the first day that this is not a get rich fast deal, For example I am looking at 2 more years "if I do it properly witch I will" before I can breed my BP, I have some Corn projects that I estimate are still 6 years of selective breeding from materializing. This is why he suggested purchasing adult breeding pairs, Thanks again its really appreciated.
Foot Hill Reptiles

If you take a partner, who has money, and is not a snake person, you are asking, I mean ASKING, to end up in an ugly court mess.

As many "sales" are actually trades, as actual cash sales. Paying top dollar for proven animals, when the price of the offspring is going to be about 10 cents on the dollar you spent on the adults, it probably will not add up.

My advice, do not take a partner, do not borrow money, do not put snakes on your CC's. Do it yourself, and answer only to yourself.

There is no guarantee buying adults will get you anywhere sooner and in my opinion is a bad plan. Buying adults does not mean they will breed any sooner than buying young ones and raising them up. If you were to go around buying up adult morphs I think you would get a good percentage of poor feeders, poor breeders, etc. Shipping adult snakes can throw off their breeding cycles as well and by the time you get them bred you could have raised them up yourself.

There's a reason an older snake is up for sale, and usually one you won't hear from the seller!
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

sold my 2 best girls to a guy yearssss ago......they threw 10 and 12 for me every year....took him 3 years to get eggs from them......why???......balls suck......always will...you sneeze in your snake room and some stop eating for 8 months....imagine what happens if you fart a good one?......

you get my idea...
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I bought 4 proven females from a local guy on december 1st. Started feeding them on Dec.4th and since then, between the four of them, they have eaten 51 sm-med rats. Plus two of them have locked up twice. Haven't tried the other two yet. This week though I will. Now does this qualify to say that adults do or do not suck? No, but I will keep you updated. And if they don't produce anything this year I will buy you a beer next time Im in PA. (Born and raised in York)

Jeff

Jason:

I have to agree with most of the comments made about having a partner. I had a partner about ten years ago when I bred and sold colubrids. He loved the animals as much as I did, but it was dificult sometimes when a decision had to be made. I ended up buying him out then sold all of my colubrids and purchased BPs and boas.

I don't owe a penny for any of my snakes and am so glad that I don't have a partner anymore.

If you think the BP market is such a good market to get into then perhaps it is time for you to transition from the cornsnake to the BP market.

Good luck with your decision.

Brian
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

a couple of years ago, my brother-in-law (who is not a herper but had some $$$ to invest) wanted to invest when I told him how much many BP morphs were selling for at the time. He also suggested buying some of the higher priced morphs as adults to avoid the declining prices for the first few clutches.

Because of my prior experience in buying and breeding adult ("used", lol!) snakes of other species (see earlier comments about possible pitfalls by another person in this thread), experience in how the expanding supply of animals affects the pricing pressures and how that works, and also in mixing personal or family friendships with the inherent unpredictabilities of herp breeding businesses in general, I declined his offer. Instead, I purchased a few nice males (pastel, pied, and albino), and a few het females, and a bunch of normal females by myself. I won't produce nearly as many, or as valuable babies, as quickly. But it will be much less stressful than having to satisfy and explain the sometimes unexplainable to a partner and friend. I feel that had I gone ahead with the partnership, this declining market, plus other possibly unexpected delays, or less than ideal breeding results, would have been a real disaster, and probably would have caused a lot of family friction and stress - or worse!

If you really want to go ahead with it, let him buy a couple of pairs or trios of something popular that you like, let him retain ownership, and he can pay you to care for and manage them, possibly by giving you some babies. Be sure to have a written agreement, possibly for a specific amount of time. And be sure to try to think of any possible problems, questions or disagreements that could come up, and to write them into the agreement. Of course, you can't think of everything, but try. At the end of that time, you both should have the option to continue, to expand, or to end it (maybe you will have to help sell them if he so chooses). Be prepared to possibly end a long term friendship over business disagreements that you can't resolve.

We did have a partnership during our Glades Herp days, and it was about as good of a partnership as any I have heard about. But there were still many disagreements, and most of the pages of the partnership agreement were devoted to how it would eventually END - a point to consider.

Be VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS if you decide to proceed.

partnerships can suck, or be hugely beneficial. depends on how you set up your deal. jody barnes is right, this ain't a quick killing in most cases. if your guy can stomach riding five years, you may have found the right guy. i think kathy love is bringing a lot of wisdom in her reply, the wisdom of experience. your perspective partners ideas are off base, adult pairs, NOT. think about buying lots of cheap baby females, that when paired with males you can get in the next couple of years, [as they become less expensive and more available], can make really sweet offspring. and try not to start out with a big overhead. it can kill you over the time it takes to become profitable. several 30 slot baby racks can sit in any corner for free, saving you a ton of money the first year. kathy love is right on. let your partner retain ownership of his animals, infastructure and facilities. you provide the muscle. split the babies. feed bills? you figure that one out. nothing ventured, nothing gained. good luck, kurt d.

Everyone that has replied has made good points. But I say give it a shot. Start very small ($3000.00), say two or three codom males and four times as many normal females. There are plenty of healthy proven normal females being sold these days. Try and find animals that are within driving distance so theres no stress from shipping and the geographical climate won't be that different. Give it a year or two so you can both see what is produced and what any pitfalls may be. If it don't work out you can either buy him out or sell of the animals and split the lose. Good luck either way.

Jeff

Thanks a million for all the replys, They have all been taken closely to heart. As I said I cant get into details at this time but having troubles is not a huge concern for me at this point in a partnership. As developments occur if I move forward this will all make sense. Right now I only employ one person "My wanderfull wife" Not even sure if employ is the right word LOL Anyway we will have a meeting and go over everything said here as well as our thoughts and concerns, if we then want to move forward we will go over all the same with said investor. Maybe like was recommended is best, Maybe just bring a truck load of money to the next show rather than having the animals shipped. Thanks again for all the replies and for understanding the question/s at hand, you guys/gals are great.
Foot Hill Reptiles

worst case scenarios. Although it is unlikely, he needs to know that it is POSSIBLE for some or all snakes not to breed, or to produce slugs. It is POSSIBLE to have a heater malfunction, or some other accident, and for some (or LOTS) to die unexpectedly for whatever reason. Of course you do not expect this, and it PROBABLY won't ever happen. But I believe you said he is not a herper, and may be totally unprepared should the unexpected occur.

The time to think about saving a friendship is before you begin, not after the unthinkable happens. Starting small to see his reactions to normal livestock business ups and downs is a good idea. Then you can iron out anything you didn't think of previously, before he has put up a substantial investment.

Good luck!

Good advice, better to start with a few individuals than dump 100G on snakes that may not breed,
Foot Hill Reptiles

An investor is going to expect a "cash" return on their investment. With the falling prices of Ball morphs, and the number of trades being made, I just do not see how it would work out ammicably for both of you.

Dave, you are always talking about the BP market not being profitable and that trades are the only way to move animals. If the guy is doing well breeding and selling corn snakes for what they go for, what would make you think he can do something with this market. And the investor may not just be looking for a cash return. He may be looking for a tax shelter. Any new business can lose money the first two years with virtually no questions ask. And with just about all the start-up cost being tax deductable, I would think that a "risky venture" such as the BP market would be an ideal business. Just out of curiosity. How many BP's did you produce this year and how many did you sell vs.trade? If you can't turn any profit, maybe you should try lowering your overhead or controling your expenses. And if your not in this to make any money why worry about the market. As a "hobbyist" I would think you would be tickled pink about prices. Just a thought.

Jeff

I NEVER agree with Ember..

but he is right...the market sucks in most parts of the country and internet sales are wierd all the time...

.....wholesale pricing is down...way down......

......anyways.partners suck seems to be the general thought here.....

...ask anyone who had one......

.....as always ....do as you wish........
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I had a partner in a business years ago. The partnership did not last as long as I would have liked, but when it ended, it wasn't the end of the friendship. And I will tell you it's nice to have someone with a vested interest to watch over things when your not around. Like on vacation for example. I'll tell who quite often suck; is hired help. Its not thier money or reputation and they don't care. And I never said that prices aren't down. I just think they are more where they should have been in the first place. $60,000 for a snake. I don't care if its the last one EVER. Hell I didn't pay that much for my first home. Or my second for that matter. But hey I am just glad you got a laugh out of it. I always get one out of your post.

Jeff

while I think that doing this full time could be very profitable, having a partner that is asking you to go in 50/50 and he isn't going to do any of the work (since he isn't a herper) is just crazy. If you are willing to put in 50% and only get 50% of the profit and do 100% of the work, just go in by yourself and get all the profit. Now that I think about it, wasn't there another duo of bp breeders that just "broke-up" and ruined the breeders rep while the businessman is still digging up partners out there? Partners suck bottome line.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

To be honest I missed the part about the 50/50 split in the investment. I was under the impression that the invester was going to front the bill and the poster would do the work and split the profits. If someone is asking to match your contribution of money and contribute nothing further then ya that is crazy. But I still am not sour on the partnership thing. I personally consider my wife to be my partner and that doesn't suck.

Jeff

No actually I have to front nothing. the 50/50 split on the investment was in reference to income there of only. For example If I sell one of the individuals for $300 we both get $150, I don't even need to make space in my current opporation as said investor wants to shop around "with me as an adviser since I am doing the work" for a commercial building for said business venture. One bad thing I did not think of is if said investor wants out some day then I am on my own to keep up a lease on a commercial building and all the responsibilities that come with that but it would be my hope by that time my business would have grown large enough to be able to keep said building.
Foot Hill Reptiles

vacation???

what the hell is that?........

.......hired help?........they might be ?.....nope...uummm.....no.....shoot....don't know what they are either.....

...and yea....17 years of this is getting older by the year.....

.......I don't worry about people giving me large amounts of cash.........my friends are as poor as I am......

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If Ember is a downer he is learning it from you. You have never had anything positive to say about the market. You act as though people are begging you to take their morphs. I remember a post of yours where you claimed that you had seen albinos for $400 each. Every post of yours talks about the market sucks, ball pythons suck, everything sucks. Knock it off. This is a ball python forum. If you don't like balls, can't stand keeping them, don't like breeding them then don't.
Half of your posts come across as though keeping snakes is a chore and you are only doing it because someone is forcing you. You barely make enough profit to get by, complain, complain, complain. Get a different job.
And don't talk about internet sales. You have nothing to say there since by your own admission you never ship animals. I don't look at websites to find a local business I open the yellow pages. You don't have a site so you have no first hand knowledge of internet sales.
Stop being the ball python forum troll. No one wants to hear or read your negativity. The market may not be as great as you'd like, but griping about it and talking about how bad it is in every one of your posts will do nothing but damage the market further. Those that are looking to invest get turned off of the potential in this market if people who claim to have 17 years in it are saying how much it sucks and how much taking care of their snakes sucks and how much the rats suck, the females suck, the morphs suck, everything sucks.
Stop. Just stop. Mama always said "If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Even if it is the truth."
Despite what some may say I can guarantee that there are quite a few people reading these forums that don't do a lot of posting but do read the posts and a lot of them are tired of reading your negativity.

Everything ells aside can someone tell me where to find those $400 albinos? LOL oh sorry.
Foot Hill Reptiles

I just state facts usually and people take them as griping....I gripe less than you think......

I NEVER said a thing about amels for $400 so that's a lie......they were $500 this year......next year maybe 4 or 300?

.....buy me out?......I dare you big boy/girl..whoever......LOL

......I know who reads this crap......I talk to alot of people......they try and sell online and deal with idiots

anyways....final fact......I don't post prices anymore......mostly......it would hurt the market .......I try not to change the market at all....and people tell me all the time in here how I don't influence them at all or make sence....so......why do you actually read my stuff?????.

you love me...come on...you can admit it........it's ok....I'm married and won't chase you around man,..........

.............happy new year......send me a check........

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a real business dude. I have owned two businesses. My favorite being a retail pet store. With real hours of operation in an actual store front. Unless your Superman you can't run a store 365 days a year 12 hours a day without some help. At least not for very long. Believe me I tried. Working out of your basement and deciding that your not gonna clean cages today doesn't cost anything. But not opening your doors when you have a lease and utilities (overhead) to be paid is a different story. If someone wants to buy but your not open their money goes down the road. And whats the point of owning a successful business if can't afford to take a little vaction now and then. (Fruits of your labor).

Well said, I am very use to putting in 16 hour days as I do this all the time, Seems like I don't get out of the office until midnight every night, however I do know I would have to have responsible help so I can still make a living on my time off. Right now I DO have a day job, Add into that my snake breeding no matter how small my client base and business is it can wreak havoc on a personal life.
Foot Hill Reptiles

and humans are the stupidest animals on the planet.....

good luck.......

...where I live there is the "World's Largets Pet Shop" so other shops don't have much bigtime profits anymore....

..they buy some corns (which aren't selling well this year , turantulas are though? go figure).and normal balls.....luckily they will buy large male hets too at times....

I added alot of different species in the last few years...that way selling it all wholesale will go faster....

.......unless that other dip buys me out in here??....I didn't even look at the name....check, check ,check.....LOL
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yea, That pet place/fish place is pretty big. I've been in there a few times. Thier dry goods and supplies are a good price, but I never thought the selection of live goods was that great. Pretty run of the mill as far as I was conserned.
You could possibly compete on animals if you offered something that they don't. Like looking at peoples names for starters.

Jeff

I looked at the name......not you that other person......don't know them or care ...male female...13 or 55 and fat....don't matter.

Fish Place......they sell some wild stuff actually....just the setups allow the critters to hide.......emeralds and or chondros usually....kings , milks, corns, ratsnakes, boas and pythons, lizards I never seen and frogs that are cool alot of times......spiders and the usual stuff....yea.......they would get stuff if people wanted it.......I told them loooong ago to put up a list of "stuff they can get probabkly" and a sign saying they can get whatever,,just ask,.......there are balls and boas and ,,well...all kinds of critters arounf here they could get.......they order alot from people that aren't right here....they look at price.....just like the customers......

..pet shop customers actually don't know about shows or internet actually..soem are pretty in the dark......they gotta be to pay the prices at times.......

......anyways........have fun.......
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Always havin' fun. Happy New Year.

Jeff

I do not think of it as a downer, more like truthful. I have made VERY good cash money selling a few Balls that I got in trade for animals I produced. By and large, most of the higher end animals I have produced have been I have kept or traded. Sure, it is pretty easy to get cash for Mojaves, Pastels, Ghosts, and a few others.

As far as profit, I would say I actually came out ahead this year, the first time in about 5 years of Ball breeding. My point is, if you take money from someone, as a silent partner of sorts, chances are, they are going to want their original investment back, and additional funds. A non snake person is not going to take a Pied in payment for giving you $3K cash. This is just my opinion, which is what the original poster wanted.

NP

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice so far - me personally - I wouldn't do it.

You own a pair of baby ball pythons - you really don't have experience with them or breeding them - that is where you need to start. Start off slow - with your own animals for a few years - don't put yourself into debt over it - see if this is even something you even want to do - see if you can manage and handle the ups and downs and the time, effort and blood you need to put into these animals - BEFORE you consider making it your livelihood.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I have currently work with Corn Snakes so I know I have what it takes to breed and sell snakes, I understand though what everyone is and has said. For sure if we decide to do it the contract would rear that I am not responsible for any losses unless of course it can be proved to be my negligence. As I said though I don't see any problems with this as it has been explained how risky it is and it has also been explained that it will be a slow return if a return at all. maybe though since we already have a good name in the Corn market the cash would be better invested there, I just don't know. I will for sure keep everyone up to date. My only thing is with the BP market history and current prices now seems like an ideal time to purchase collections from people wanting out. Its bound to go back up eventually, Especially if we did like a recent post here said and start managing our own resources. Just a thought.
Foot Hill Reptiles

be happier breeding a few BPs in this market than some of those who have always bred BPs only. We are used to seeing much lower prices for new corn morphs, and also the REALLY quick decline in prices for any colubrid morphs that are no longer new.

But I fear that some of the newer BP breeders who first started just a few years ago will be disillusioned much more quickly now that the supply is higher than demand, forcing prices lower. Although corns are much more prolific than BPs, the prices on the python morphs still sound pretty good to a corn breeder, lol!

I think it is a good idea to have at least a little variety with some type of boa or small python that you like, and that will not be too difficult (at least with your help) for your novice or intermediate corn customers who want to try something new. That is why I decided to try a small group (besides the fact that I really like pieds and bumblebees!)

Maybe it would be better off talking said investor into cashing in on not only BP's but also my kings and corns and the Hybrid projects I have planed?
Foot Hill Reptiles

BPs are throwing some beautiful morphes ,in which i have aquired but 3 years down the road is the value gonna be 50% of your present puchase price,Colubrids have been my fav for years and the Fl. Kingsnakes are morphing into some awesome investment type animals in the future(imho),stuff still yet to bloom,i still think entry level is important for the supply/demand future of herpetoculture.
dont get me wrong i LOVE my BPs (Pet Rocks LOL)and i am working on multi het co.dom x recessive morphe and one project is occupying 11 drawers in my snake room....L8r Chris

WHEW I am glad this forum is my last stop here as my fingers get tired LOL I agree totally, No matter what I will never stop my King and Corn breeding, Its the same idea of stock investing, if your portfolio is not diversified you are doomed LOL.
Foot Hill Reptiles

Try to think about what it will be like in 10 years. By that time you will be established. You will be producing and selling animals, only to make 50% of the profit. It sounds like a good deal now, but down the road I know I would not want to keep giving away half of what I make. It's like in the movies where the local business owner has to pay tribute to the mob boss lol.

If you do decide to go through with it, I'd recommend hiring a lawyer to write the contract. If he's the investor, he can pay for it lol. I'm sure a lawyer would have some good advice for you. Put everything in writing. If you will make all business decisions and he will strictly fund you, put it in writing. Also try to think of how you guys would end the partnership if one of you decides to back out.

Oh absolutely, We are talking about a lot of money here so if this happens for sure there will be legal advice involved to protect us both. I think I have received all the info I need from the great people of this forum and will now get to work figuring things out. If this dose transpire I will keep everyone up to date on the goings on. Thanks a million for all the help.
Foot Hill Reptiles

Jason, a few more things to consider.

1) You stated that the investor is not a snake person, and clearly looking to make a buck. That right there would be enough to make me say no. It is going to be hard to explain that animals selling for $2k a year ago, and that you paid $2K for, are now only selling for $300. I do not have any particular morph in mind for the above numbers, but pretty much every morph is under $1K now. I am talking Albino, Axanthics, Pastels, Ghosts, Cinnamons, Pins, Spiders...etc. I am not talking about double morphs.

2) If you lease a building, even a small one, you are going to have to pay rent, water, sewer, electricity, and INSURANCE. I am sure insurance is going to be huge money based on the business being snake related. All these expendatures are due in cash, not trade. The only possitive I can see is that you could breed your own rodents in said building, and feed for "free" and possibly sell excess rodents to make a few bucks.

3) If you are going to spend alot of money up front, you need to make back alot of money plus some. You can do that by buying and producing a large amount of one morph, produce 100 Pastels,and/ or 100 Mojaves, and/or 100 Pins...etc. OR, you can produce fewer animals, but Pastel Mojaves, Or Pastel Pins, or any combo morph(s). Keep in mind, you do not want to become a factory, and produce way too many of one morph, and then have 70 of them sitting in your tubs, not selling at market price, and then have to cut your price in half, leaving everyone else selling that morph really peeved at you.

OK, so HOW DO you make it work? If it was me, it would all start with the propery. I would buy a less than awesome house, on land, with a few outbuildings. Here in CA, solar power would be a big plus. Breed your own rodents, they are a BIG expense. I think alot of people start out as a hobbyist, and once it turns into a business, lose the fun that they had when it was just a hobby. Then it turns into a job...

Bottom line, if you are going to do something, I think it all starts with the right property, once you have to lease a building, it is going to be tough.