Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am freaking out over here. I was changing some water dishes and noticed some flecks floating in the water. Some kinda small bugs. Alot smaller then mites.

Last year I had mites in my bedding and all over my snakes. I only have a small collection o it was easy to completly rid of them all by using nix and getting rid of all the aspen and switching to newspaper.

For some reason I slowly re-introduced aspen to make my setups look a little more natural than newspaper. Now today after seeing the flecks in the water started looking through all the tubs in my rack. And sure enough under the aspen by the waterdishes maybe due to moiture. But there was tons of small bugs. None on the snakes. Smaller then mites and tanish in color and small as a fleck of dust. I really had to look to see them while shining a bright flashlight. These things are so small I cant even photograph them.

Now my collection is getting fairly large and I had to throw out like 100$ worth of aspen. Completly clean everything down and switched to shredded newspaper. Hopefully that rids these buggers, cause they made there way through my whole snake room in like a 2 week period.

Anyone know what these could be? I called the local reptile shop and was told it was some kind of a natural decomposer and harmless to the snakes?
Either way they are gross and had to go.

Anyone have troubles with aspen?
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www.BetterBoa.com

4.3 BCIs (Zeus, Athena, Xena, Jocasta, Menelaus, Aphodite, Hades)
4.4 Corn snakes

I've never had that problem, but I sure will keep an eye out for them now. Could it possibly be the kind aspen your buying? I dont buy the major brands, but a brand made for rodents. LM animal farms I think it is. The only thing I could think of is to freeze the aspen before you use it. I think it's too small to heat treat. It might catch fire! Ha! Good luck.
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No, we're never gonna quit,Ain't nothin' wrong with it,Just actin' like we're animals - Nickelback, Animals

Well the positive thing is that the bugs don't seem to be snake mites. We're I'm at it's snowing pretty heavily, so I'd put the aspen outside overnight to kill the bugs. I'd be willing to bet Provent-A-Mite would kill off the remaining bugs, even if they aren't snake mites.

I don't think there is any sort of mite that eats dried wood (like aspen), so it would be interesting to identify what the bugs are. If the insects are too small to get a photo of, perhaps you could take a sample to your local Natural History Museum for an ID.

Tim

Third Eye

They seemed to be feeding on the moister bits of aspen. And I could only see them once i disturbed the aspen and seen at the bottom of the tanks with a flashlight?

Either way I am making the switch to paper
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www.BetterBoa.com

4.3 BCIs (Zeus, Athena, Xena, Jocasta, Menelaus, Aphodite, Hades)
4.4 Corn snakes

I have seen those bugs before back when I used aspen, but from what I saw, they were bigger than what mites would be.
I asked around, and the responses I got were that they were some kind of bug/mite that was harmless to the snakes but did like the wood.
Either way, I use newspaper now.
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Genesis 1:1

With my size collection, news paper is not odor absorbent enough, I just don't like the looks of it and its just not practical enough for me. Even though I have had some issues with aspen, I prefer it over all else. Although, newspaper served its purpose well, back when I used it. Especially if you have to deal with mites.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once"

My experience has been different, as newspaper for me has been much better in absorbing odors vs. when I used aspen. The " snake room " smell left once I started strictly on newpapers.

I do love the look of aspen though. For me though, my collection is small enough to use newspapers with no prob. Bigger collections, using aspen, can seem more practical.

Hope things get better!!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Newsprint is not really an option for most of the people on this forum. This is because it's very dangerous to use in cages that are heated by UT heat devices. UT heat is the safest and most ecomonical heat source AND it's GREEN in terms of using much less energy than conventional lights or radiant elements. Those are three good reasons to use UT heaters AND aspen bedding. I have used both paper and aspen, but in the past 30 years, aspen has been in nearly all my cages. I can't imagine switching away from it. You'll hear rare accounts of Oklahoma wood mites in it, but except for giving ya the creeps, they're virtually harmless to most reptiles. BTW, the last time I saw any invetebrate life in aspen bedding was in 1991. I stopped buying that particular brand and have never seen any since.

If you heat the entire room where you keep your snakes, newprint is fine for each cage, but if you're using UT heating, it's an insufficient buffer between the snake and the heat. While corns are not known to voluntarily cook on such overheating zones, they can die by virtue of avoiding the warm end of the cage, and thereby not being able to properly digest.

Great post Don!!! Good point about the UT heaters with newspaper.
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Genesis 1:1

I had a over all high temp issue off a biostat I use. I only had 1 snake at the time, and he was doing fine and I never checked the temps much.

Long story very short, I got more snakes set them up and found this high temp issue so I started to watch with 2 digital thermometers with probes.

I get over jealous with aspen as I have so few snakes, but I was loading cages with as much as 3"s. I found high temps again, but it was just one thermometer probe, and it was buried at the flex watt end of a tub under 3"s of aspen. Well DUH, the aspen acts as an insulator and the heat can build, and where my probe for my stat has far less aspen. BUT in a similar area of a tub.

I played around a bit and found 1" of aspen can raise temps almost 10 degrees at the bottom. Comparing 2" to 3" of aspen. I now pile aspen at the cooler to middle and maybe 1-2" max on the heat end.

Baby corns I can not get a read on. They are all over, on a lip of a tub, hot end, cool end. But I see adults come out and sit on the warm end, then go back and bury in the deep stuff.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I had this same issue a few months ago. I had to totally clean out and scrub all my racks. The only thing I could think of was, they were some kind of wood mite. They didn't have any interest in the snakes, nor bother them. It was a pain for me as well because I had to totally empty, clean my rack and replace all the aspen. Not cheap or easy.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once"

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack. PC crashed, got to love it!

Sounds like wood mites. They can pester a herp if in large numbers. Cold will just make them dormant as they manage to make it through winters. I guess you can bake the wood. 250ish, 1-3 hours depending on amount, depth and your liking of cooked wood.

Microwaves are good but small. They will pop the eggs too from what I have read. I tried plastic bags in a MW, but I learned you really need a MW "safe" plastic as it will plasticize. (Chemicals in the plastic leach in the wood).
Maybe a large load in your dyer on linen? OK JUST KIDDING! Although a tumbling kiln is what you need.

I gave my beardies away. I use to use cypress or pine mulches. They always had some wood mites. I loved to watch the beardies watch them. I guess they figured to small to try to eat, but I have seen them follow one around. Maybe waiting for it to grow up?

Peace people,

Belated Happy New Year to all.

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I keep a somewhat large collection,and use aspen in all my enclosures. I use the Harlan brand and have never had that problem.

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Arlon Delorge
Classic Constrictors

These are indeed HARMLESS wood mites. Seen them dozens of times in the two decades I've used aspen. They will not harm your snakes or do any other damage to them or you.

Don't like them? Store your aspen in subfreezing temperatures. Provent a mite will also get rid of them-but remember, that stuff is a fairly serious poison, so I'd ask myself if a case of the "willies" on my part is worth exposing my snakes unnecessarily.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I saw them in aspen, and I switched to hemp.
Then I saw them in hemp and switched to shredded paper. I swear I've seen them in pelleted bedding too, but it's hard to tell as the pelleted stuff is really dusty. so I quit using that for snakes as well.
While paper doesn't absorb odors well, the snakes seem to like it, it's free, and I doubt bugs will be my problem anymore, but when a snake poops, I have to start opening drawers to figure out which one to change, as the smell gets to me.

I have used aspen since the late '80s, and pine shavings from the '70s to '80s. During that time, I have seen some wood mites and a few other bugs in shavings. They are usually small and red and do not seem to cause any distress to snakes. Even without any treatment, they seemed to fade away over time. Maybe the wood is too dry in the cages - not sure why they did not survive long term in cages. I didn't really find them anything to worry about. I haven't seen any for a long time - guess they just occur now and then, when conditions are right.

I suppose you could bake the shavings in an oven. Or throw a cageful of shavings (without the snake!) outside for a few days in winter, if you live in a cold climate. Although the mites can probably survive winter, they likely find a relatively warm place to sleep underground or in rotting vegetation, like many other animals. They may not be able to survive total exposure with no warm place to hide. I am not a bug expert, so can't say for sure.

You could also expose the cage of shavings (without the snake) to a strong dose of No-Pest Strip in an unventilated place for a day or two, then air it out for a day or two before putting the snake back in.

Seems like there are lots of ways to deal with it, including just making sure it is nothing dangerous to the snake, and then just ignoring it.

...always so impressed that you take the time to chime in on these forums. Your input is always very informative and well thought out. So few of the "big names" in this hobby visit these forums (not slamming anyone, it just is) that I think it is great for all of us to have someone with your experience share their knowledge and I just wanted to say thanks.

Rob

P.S. - It was also great to see you mention pine shavings as a substrate. They seem to be one of those things that somehow became an absolute no, no on the forums but something that, in reality, could be a good substrate alternative.

I did use pine for a long time - long before I knew there was such a thing as aspen. And I didn't have any big problems there were definitely caused by pine. But I do believe that some of my older animals that developed incomplete closure of the lips (a little gaping), may have done so because of many years of breathing in the volatile oils of pine. Snakes are usually kept in cages with less ventilation than rodent cages, in which pine is often used; and snakes have a much longer lifespan in which to accumulate long term problems. I feel that the corns may have had some scarring in the respiratory tract that made them breathe through the mouth at times. However, I never had one necropsied, and have no way to know if it is actually true. It is just my guess from observations.

Now that we have aspen, I don't recommend pine anymore. Although I never saw any ill effects from using pine for a short time, (just over many years, possibly), why take a chance? With more ventilation, I expect it would be safer, but I would still recommend the aspen, just to be safe.

...about pine. I have used it in the past but only for short periods. I, too, never had any problems but I also did not have the sample size or length of observation that you had. That is exactly why I appreciate the time you (and others with tons of experience) take to participate. After 15 years I still get new (to me anyway) info and keep learning. Thanks again.

Rob

The moisture content. Must pine is just run off from mills planing lumber. Lumber is to be "kiln dried" but is rarely below 20% on the shelf. maybe over 25%, especially on treated lumbers. (I know, not for herp, I know more about lumber than I do herps)

I always tell people that buy bales of pine off me for mammals, to open it, and fluff up the top to let air get to it. If you notice very dry pine does not seem to smell as mcch as wet pine.

No scientific proof, but I presume the evaporation is also pulling the turpentine based oils from the wood faster.

So to me very dry pine is safer for the critter. I still know a few people that use it for snakes. I don't, I very much prefer aspen, and hope to make my own this year. Aspen is all over the place. I have a 40'r that fell over in a storm on my property. Should supply me for life. Aspen is grossly over priced. Sad anything tht hits the reptile market is like a boat item now, it cost 3-5 times as much as a normal item.

I hope ya had a great holday.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

Wow what an overwhelming responce and also a response from the author of my cornsnake manuel Kathy Love. WOW what a great herping community forum. I am gonna switch to paper for the time being but thank you all!!
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www.BetterBoa.com

4.3 BCIs (Zeus, Athena, Xena, Jocasta, Menelaus, Aphodite, Hades)
4.4 Corn snakes

OK OK Just kidding. I am known to be a smart arse!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I suspect the drier the pine, the less off-gassing. And the longer it has been airing out, the less toxic it probably is. But even though aspen is still more expensive, shavings are one of my least expenses, so I don't find it THAT expensive.

Most of the old aspen for herps was planed across the grain (shredded). Not a normal process at all in the lumber industry. Planed inline is like pine has always been. Most aspen is now cut like pine in bulk. Shredded aspen is used in evaporation coils and a few other applications. But I found it funny that when big her companies made small prepackaged small packaged aspen (as shredded), the bulk from sun seed and others changed ti inline (like pine cut)?

I wonder if there is an agreement between companies? Much like lights, and a few other items, you have to buy from a big herp company or it's very hard to find. I mean why is a red glass light bulb we just need for heat anything over $1. I won't even bring up their panned obsolescence. Or did I just bring it up? lol Sorry, I'm just a cheapo. Also hate abusing the consumer. Ralph Nader for President.. OK, that's a bit to much. OK, I'll just stop now!!!!!!!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I buy it in large bags, like the pine comes in (I use pine for rodents). I don't remember exact figures, but I think the big bag of pine shavings is about $5 - $6 and a similar sized bag of shredded aspen is about $12 at the local feed store. But one bag does a lot of cages!

I like the shredded so much better than the flaked shavings. Shredded seems more absorbent and less stinky when it starts to get dirty, has softer and smaller pieces if ingested, and holds its shape much better for babies to tunnel in it. I didn't care for the flaked shape much at all when I tried it. But anyone with more than a couple of snakes should check out large bag prices at the local feed store rather than a pet shop.

far as I know in bulk. And yes, the shredded will absorb better as there is more surface area and less area or thick, deep chunky wasted areas of wood.

I don't want to reveil to much, but we bought 50 bales a few years back at $6 a bale, the size of pine. That was shredded aspen. I'm not sure why we don't order it again, except the other stuff is just easier to order in amounts we need per week.

I often talk about it, but some day I want to make some of these herp items, just to kill my boredom. A daughter in college has been keeping me from building my barn. But aspen was a trash wood. Now a little history on aspen.

A certain big lumber company stripped millions or acres of pine for lumber back in the early 60's I believe. Our gov't said replant the area. They had a choice of pine seedling you have to plant by hand, one by one, or aspen which is like a weed and planted by seed. Well, you can guess. Aspen is a very fast growing tree. But was not stable in the 70's standards for lumber, so our gov't had millions of acres of aspen.

They gave that same lumber company a grant (HUGE) to find a use for all this aspen wood. They developed oriented strand board that lead to "engineered lumbers". Lumber I beams make of aspen ect. Later as pine quality dropped do to super fast growing farm lumber, aspen was not so bad comparatively, so now we see some aspen furniture. But around here quaking aspen trees are trash.

As a bedding material shredded it is outstanding.

Now if I can built my log planer. I would not have so much time to post.

Once again, more info than anyone wanted.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

It may have been more then i needed to know, but certainly no more then i wanted to. I to am in the Lumber industry(Trusses, Eng. floor systems, LVL Beams) and learned a bit of history on the product i sell!

Now to stay on topic, I use coconut bark mulch and i find it's the best! I find it has this ability to hold moisture in one end of the tank and allow the other end to stay dry. It holds moisture well and also works well in dry form. The only complaint i have about the stuff are these "tubble weeds" of coconut hair i find, they just don't look good! i worry about my snakes ingesting these hairs, but have never seen signs of a problem! Thoughts?

I hope you support my post? Must of that was off a modern marvel program I think? Then I googled stuff and found more. lol

Anyway,, I never used it. I sat here for some time, and was trying to think of a way to remove tiny hairs. Yes, my life is boring lol. The only thing I thought of is static. Like Styrofoam beads stick to you pants. Now this part many sound really stupid, unless it actually works, but spread the stuff out and take a balloon you rubbed on something. I think human hair sticks to the balloons after you rub them. Maybe a similar property there.

Now for those laughing, remember penicillin was made from a guy playing with molding bread.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

>>I am freaking out over here. I was changing some water dishes and noticed some flecks floating in the water. Some kinda small bugs. Alot smaller then mites.
>>
>>Last year I had mites in my bedding and all over my snakes. I only have a small collection o it was easy to completly rid of them all by using nix and getting rid of all the aspen and switching to newspaper.
>>
>>For some reason I slowly re-introduced aspen to make my setups look a little more natural than newspaper. Now today after seeing the flecks in the water started looking through all the tubs in my rack. And sure enough under the aspen by the waterdishes maybe due to moiture. But there was tons of small bugs. None on the snakes. Smaller then mites and tanish in color and small as a fleck of dust. I really had to look to see them while shining a bright flashlight. These things are so small I cant even photograph them.
>>
>>Now my collection is getting fairly large and I had to throw out like 100$ worth of aspen. Completly clean everything down and switched to shredded newspaper. Hopefully that rids these buggers, cause they made there way through my whole snake room in like a 2 week period.
>>
>>Anyone know what these could be? I called the local reptile shop and was told it was some kind of a natural decomposer and harmless to the snakes?
>>Either way they are gross and had to go.
>>
>>Anyone have troubles with aspen?
>>-----
>>www.BetterBoa.com
>>
>>4.3 BCIs (Zeus, Athena, Xena, Jocasta, Menelaus, Aphodite, Hades)
>>4.4 Corn snakes

I use shredded aspen along with other things. It's a good bedding, lots better than pine or cedar, imo. There can be problems, however. I found very dry aspen often has dust, so I spray the aspen occasionally and then let it dry out over a few days. I also found that the aspen sometimes is still green when it arrives. I try to avoid buying it green, but if it happens, I'll let it sit and dry for as much as two or three months. My biggest problems came from the aspen getting too wet, such as when a water container has been turned over. The aspen will abosrb the water, then, over time will start to mold, etc. Damp areas of your cage can attract unwanted critters too. Mites and other invertebrates need moisture to breed. Eliminating wet spots often will curtail breeding of bugs. I still find inverts in the water the snakes drink, especially if I don't change it every week. I look at them under a microscope and used to freak when I found the occasional dust mite. Also seen are baby spiders, tiny black flies, and other insects. These pests will not likely be seen when you keep your cages very clean and dry and change the water fairly often. I provide the necessary moisture by using multiple water containers, a moist hide, and the occasional spraying.

Cheers...Terry
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