Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I wanted to post this to see if anyone has seen this before.

Last year I had 12 ciliatus eggs hatch from the same parents. The parents were not related. They were all fine and I did not notice anything out of the ordinary with the hatchlings behavior. No later than 2 months after the last 2 eggs hatched, I noticed one of the babies acting peculiar. Its head was angled to the left side and favored moving in that direction. When I got it out, it would act very disoriented and in trying to escape, it would turn circles. When it would jump, it would fall short of its target. Despite the handicap, it is now 6 months old and eating the peach Gerber and CGD and though struggles with the crickets, is successful in one in five attempts. He can walk in a straight line but if he goes to run, he is all over the place and sometimes-even rolls on its side but is quick to get back to its feet.

I ruled out MBD because I had one that was deprived of sufficient supplementation that ended up getting MBD. The joints became swollen like “Popeye” , had rubber limbs and was very clumsy. We were able to rehabilitate him, which took the better of 3 months.

Yesterday I was at a “Big Chain Pet Store”. I noticed an incredible Harlequin in their tank and I wanted to see it. The store associate said that they would not be able to sell it to me because its behavior was “Erratic”. I asked to see him anyway and as it moved, I noticed that it is under the SAME EXACT handicap as mine! Head cocked to the side and it favors moving in the direction that which its head is tilted, disoriented, and when it jumps, there is no direction in its leap!

I asked the associate what they were going to do with it. He said they were going to adopt it out because it could not be sold in its condition. I told them that I would adopt it out as I am working with a “special needs” crestie with the same problem. I got him home and set him up in a small enclosure with few obstacles but enough obstacles to be a crestie. I offered a nickels diameter worth of my fruit blend and when I woke this morning, the food was nearly gone. SO…..it is eating.

Since I have now seen this twice, I am sure someone out there has seen this before and may know what this handicap is. I would like to know if this is treatable or if this is something that is hereditary. If this is hereditary, then I cannot use the parents for any more breeding projects and will just have to maintain them as “Pets”. Could this have been a deficiency in the early stages of development post hatching? Could these cresties both have been the last of what was layed by the female and maybe her calcium levels were drained?

I am pretty concerned if I need to cull this part of my collection out from the breeding projects. Though the siblings are perfectly fine, a hidden trait is worrying. I would rather prove this to be a husbandry error and learn from it than find out it is genetic.

Both of these subjects in question are about 3.5 to 4 inches from snout to tail tip.

All information regarding this is greatly appreciated! Thank you so much for your time!

Severa

i am highly suspicious that the diet you have been feeding the parents and the babies has a lot to do with the problem. baby food is extremely difficult to properly supplement and if you are mixing it into the CGD, you're losing all the benefits of the MRP. switch to straight CGD for all your geckos. it may take a while to notice any effects, but it will make them healthier over time. if they are not getting the nutrients they need in the proper quantities, it can cause all kinds of problems, even with offspring.
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4.1 snakes, 5.3.2 crested geckos, 0.1 gargoyle gecko, 2.0 devon rex cats, 1.0 betta

MMMMMMM......not sure it so much is the diet that causes what seems to be neurological like behavior. Plus, remember this is only one gecko out of a large collection. Well, really two now since the new addition that had not developed this issue in my care. Much of their diet is gutloaded crickets and peach or apricot cocktails with mixtures of trace amounts of bee pollen, crested gecko diet, carrot and banana.

If I had more of them acting this way, I would definately consult/re-read Rapashy's Rhacodactylus book or research the diet from start to finish again. But one out of many....its just not enough to point the finger at the diet.

I think I need to record a short clip of this behavior and put it on YouTube so all of you can get a better idea of the actions.

Thanks for the post,
Severa

neurological problems can stem from calcium deficiencies. the fact that these were your most recent hatchlings suggests that the problem is getting worse over time - perhaps the female is not passing on enough of the right stuff to her eggs.

http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3283&page=2
http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13990
http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6825
http://forums.repashy.com/showthread.php?t=1054
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4.1 snakes, 5.3.2 crested geckos, 0.1 gargoyle gecko, 2.0 devon rex cats, 1.0 betta

read the section on feeding from this veterinarian experienced in crested geckos:

http://www.downeastherps.com/geckocaresheets.htm
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4.1 snakes, 5.3.2 crested geckos, 0.1 gargoyle gecko, 2.0 devon rex cats, 1.0 betta

Please understand that I have to take everything with a grain of salt...especially on these boards. What doubt I refleced in my response to yours caused you to do something that which I completely admire.I didn't mean for you to go hrough the trouble but by you referencing your response to other has been a tremendous help but also very surprising.
It amazed me that an issue much like mine on another board had even the experts baffled. It also amazes me that this is all seemingly contributed to the lack of sufficient calcium levels. But why is this neurological and not MBD????
I am lucky that I have only one specimen reflecting this behavior. My only guess is like you mentioned, since he was one of the last eggs layed, her calcium levels may not have been up to par and he didn't get a good running start after hatching. I didn't notice this right away after he hatchd though and though I never used straight baby food, apparently I did not have enough of the dietary needs in the mix. The diets will have o be changed up now.
I do not know if what damage that is done can be undone. I will have to treat this like MBD and see if I see any improvements but also make sure to not over do the clcium either.
Thanks again Warnersister, you were an incredible help!

Warner and I are not necessarily known for agreeing, but in this case I do. She provided some great resources, but to add my two cents: MBD is only the extreme case of calcium deficiency and we haven't exactly ruled out that it could be other trace elements present in CGD that are lacking in addition. I would expect re-growth of neural pathways to not happen at this stage, you'll probably always have two special needs geckos. But good for you for taking on them.

Anyways, just adding to the opinions in case you wanted more consensus.

Good luck, I am not sure what I would do in your situation, but maybe giving the breeders some time on straight CGD (and prey items) before the next batch might be in order too. At least, that's what they say about humans, right? (Healthy mom=healthy baby and lots of neonatal vitamins.)
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0.1 Albino Leo Gecko
0.1 Crested Gecko
1.0 Dear Boyfriend
Departed: Harvey and Spock

agreed. i wouldn't think you would need to stop breeding those 2, just get them healthy.

severa, glad i could help some, even if the cause isn't perfectly clear. it's hard to convince some people to feed CGD, they always want to know what's so bad about other foods because they don't always see the immediate negative effects.
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4.1 snakes, 5.3.2 crested geckos, 0.1 gargoyle gecko, 2.0 devon rex cats, 1.0 betta

I am not going to get into how Science is always changing. In this case, it has more to do on how we interpret or hypothesize what is going on. I base what I know off of trial and error and alot of what I read. I have to get the info from somewhere right? So, the RHacodactylus book was a good start along with the ever so trust-worthy Internet (wink wink) and of course the Reptiles and Vivarium publications. For Rhacodactylus, the guys were out there in New Caledonia for months on end studying the diet and behaviors. Rhacs has been seen eating rotting fruits that fell from the trees on the forest floor along with bugs. My diet regimine seemed to make sense. I even incorporate the CGD into the mix. But now we are to believe that CGD is the way to go...just like once baby foods and crickets were the way to go. To back this up, at least we have a vet on the other board displaying cause and effect X-rays comparing a gecko on baby food and a gecko on CGD.
Last night, after this whole revelation, I used CGD in many of my cages. No one really messed with it. I am going to have to find a way to ween them off of the predominant fruit source and onto CGD. I wonder if I can mix honey into the CGD without giving them a sugar overload and then slowly back out of the honey in the mix.
I am rather certain I have 2 gravid females right now. Their sacs in their mouth indicate that they have good calcium stores. I just have to keep that up and hope for the best.

Thanks again,
Severa

that is true, and since i cannot conduct my own experiments, i will have to trust the man with the largest collection of ciliatus to try and test the formula through the generations. after all, we've only had the geckos here for around 10 years, so we're just getting started. oh, i'm glad you found the thread with the x-rays, that's a good one too, i think i forgot to include it.

there are a lot of things still not understood about how animal's diets in the wild can be replicated in captivity - where do they get certain vitamins/minerals? obviously, bugs eaten in the wild aren't dusted.

the consensus on switching geckos to CGD seems to be the cold turkey method. offer nothing else but fresh CGD every other day and they will eventually eat it, since they will not starve themselves. just keep a close eye on weight, you could try hand feeding. there are other ways to do it and this one can be a little nerve-wracking since some geckos may hold out for a week or two, but when they get hungry enough, they will eat it and they usually love it. you could also try the 2-part base and flavor nectar formula - rose seems to be the most effective flavor, but this is a little more pricey than the original banana CGD. i wouldn't put honey in it, as it already has a good deal of honey powder in it already. you could try fruit juice though, i know someone has had success using pomegranate juice to mix instead with it instead of water.

one thing i do with my breeding females is leave a small dish of pure calcium powder in the cage for them to eat when they feel the need - their bodies will tell them if they need it, and i have witnessed it being licked up.
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4.1 snakes, 5.3.2 crested geckos, 0.1 gargoyle gecko, 2.0 devon rex cats, 1.0 betta

I did not even think about leaving the powders out for them even though thats what I did when I bred leopards.

What kills me is that I researched ciliatus for a good year before I got my first pair. This was nearly 4 years ago. I would have had them sooner but back then, you didn't see them in reptile shows in my area. Information was obviously more limited too.

I don't frequent the boards like I did and I inadvertantly unplugged myself from new information on their care. Once you are used to doing something a certain way and you get mostly good results, its hard to believe that you could be doing anything wrong. I never claim to know everything and you can never really know too much when it comes to captive care. I guess the foolish part on my side is that I failed to recognize that the info learned years ago is outdated and especially on a species that is relatively new to the herpetocultural society.
I am glad I know now! Thanks for all the info!

Severa

I would highly not suggest the cold turkey method of switching to solid CGD. Most of the people that come here seem to have the most success slowly upping the amount of CGD to fruit ratio until you get to full CGD. (as per the directions on the label.)

Another suggestion is to dust their crickets with the powder itself. I have mixed feelings about this method, but many have reported quick success with this method.

I would also like to interject that from my own experiences with my own and friends' geckos they like their CGD "aged". Although the MRP suggested replacing it every day, many geckos seem to be happier when the mixture has sat for a day. Our current gecko, the funny one, will actually sleep above the fresh bowl of CDG for the first day after we placed it the night before. Almost as if she was guarding it or in my boyfriend's opinion wants to smell it all night. As soon as she's up that night the bowl is licked clean. When there is no CGD to guard, she's off in her leaves sleeping. Fresh stuff apparently is just for smelling not eating. Just how most of the cresties I've "met" like their CGD.

Its only been 12 years, we're all learning and sharing and disagreeing and even occasionally agreeing.

Hope everything helps in some way.
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0.1 Albino Leo Gecko
0.1 Crested Gecko
1.0 Dear Boyfriend
Departed: Harvey and Spock