Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I need some input on what to do? First back in mid-September of 2007 I sold 1.1 spider balls with 0.1 normal ball. These were all produced in 2007. I shipped them to another state. They arrived little cold, but nothing life threathing. The man who received them WAS Happy. He said they all ate and every thing was fine and danny. The problem comes in about mid-November of 2007, when this man said the male spider ball is "STARGAZING." He told me that "at first this spider ball was fine, but it struck at a mouse and missed with hitting the side of the cage wall." Then started acting retarded. Next he followed to take the snake to a vet, which put the snake down and diagnosed it with IBD. Now this is where the fun begins. He stated he plans to take me to small claims court for $2000 dollars. After all he only paid $650 shipped for the trio. This man has also let some pretty rude messages on the answering machine, which my whole family has to listen to. What do I do? I don't have IBD in my collection. Every other snake (balls and boas) I produced never had these problems. My problem is almost two months go by and everything is fine. Am I responds able for this snake? I have no clue what kind of condition this snake has been in. Personally I feel this is wrong and out of my hands. Please tell me what you think and feel? Thanks for your time Marshall Mauro

Sorry. I moved this message to the ball bussiness issues.

It's more than likely what your customer saw was typical spider wobbling not IBD - its also highly likely that the vet was not familiar with this issue in the morph and put down a perfectly healthy snake.

Unless the customer can produce a necropsy report proving IBD or something similar - I'd say there really isn't much liability on your part.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I agree! Chances are, he wasn't familiar with spider/wobble sydrome, freaked out, took it to a vet, not familiar either, then put down a otherwise healthy animal! Unless they can come up with diagnosis that can be cross-checked by YOUR vet, I say, let him sue!

Make sure you are familiar with the spider wobble - things like that it doesn't usually appear in hatchlings until they reach a couple hundred grams, that it varies from a minor twitch or stargazing especially when feeding or excited to spending most of their lives upside down - that it can look like IBD but is not a health issue it is a characteristic of the morph and that it has been known to lessen or go away with age.

Take this information back to your customer and discuss it rationally. Follow up with the vet and be sure that you get pathology reports on the animal - if there are none then that is his loss - you can't diagnose IBD without lab work. Let your customer know that this would be customary in any situation and that you are going beyond your TOS to help him out.

But I agree if he's going to sue someone it should be the vet.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Did the Necropsy Report come back with Inclusion Bodies Detected in the tissue such as liver? I bet not!!!!!

The Vet. had no idea what they were looking at and killed a fine snake.

SATAN

>>It's more than likely what your customer saw was typical spider wobbling not IBD - its also highly likely that the vet was not familiar with this issue in the morph and put down a perfectly healthy snake.
>>
>>Unless the customer can produce a necropsy report proving IBD or something similar - I'd say there really isn't much liability on your part.
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>>Tosha
>> JET Pythons
>>
>>
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

I agree, Vets are salesman, and their degree makes you believe them. Plain and simple. I have yet to meet one I agree with/that isnt trying to sham me for extra money. I had one vet tell me it is in humane to breed asain dogs due to their health problems and breathing troubles, when the breeds have been around longer than Jesus. I say screw that guy. He dropped the snake and lied about it to save the shame. Anybody taking a ball python to a vet shouldn't own one. The only reason we need vets is because some will sell us meds for our animals.

There was a lady who came into the shop one day because her beardie was "sick" and not eating. I got her son to admit he dropped it and told her she'd have to syringe feed it until it eats on its own (it injured its jaw.) She came back the next day and tried pulling the same stunt on my manager, and returned again two weeks later when it was about to die because she hadn't fed it at all. They guy's not entitled to anything. He messed up and lied about it.

Maybe you could've given him a deal on another one because he messed up and people do that sometimes but when people threaten you, it's quite clear they will never be satisfied and they are not going to do you any good by word of mouth anyway so you might as well cut ties.

....is the et part right.hell.French class was over 30 years ago..my god......

.anyways......

......the man is out of luck...it was fine for 2 months and that's his trouble.

.the VET IS totally retarded I bet and it was just being a normal spider.......retarded......and he killed it for nuttin honi......

could be still alive and sold....could be anywhere.....it's in the freezer would just make the "they are both reterded" story true..

......ask any of us to go along to court......we'd all swear our spiders are retarded too.......and doing fine....it's "cute"......not......

......IBD would have killed all his pythons?.right.....

....and you don't have it so he got it somewhere else if he actually has it.or your stuff would be dropping too...

..

..let him read these.....

..I hate people......people suck......once it leaves my hands.....it's theirs.....and most people don't know enough about snakes........even if they buy them......
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All courts work on "Caveat emptor" or Buyer Beware. He is responsible for making sure no matter what he buys is what he wants. As long as you did not knowling conceal that there was something wrong with your snake then he will ahve no chance in court. I would send him an article about Spiders having the problem of the traits he explained. Then ask him to take the body of the snake to a vet in his area and you will refund him all monies if it has IBC. However, he has to pay all vet bills until it is proven you were in the wrong. Write it up in a contract. This way it looks like you are doing everything you can do. Shows GREAT service and that you want to truly help.

The good news he will do none of the above. If he tries to sue you, you can prove you did EVERYTHING in your power to be fair and he wouldn't / couldn't follow through on his end. No judge in the world will decide in his favor but you should try to make things right, at least in his eyes. I would never refund money unless there was lab work and everything to prove it was really IBC.

I would ask him if a necropsy was performed on the snake. If not, then it is up to him and his vet to prove the IBD with some concrete evidence.

Most seller's Terms of Service go somewhat like the following.

If a snake arrives dead or is deceased within a certain amount of time (7 day helath guarantee?) the seller shall be notified immediately. A necropsy on the animal shall be conducted by an agreed upon veterinarian or the animal sent back to the seller. Upon receipt of the deceased animal, the seller will have a necropsy done and the results forwarded to you straight from the veterinarian. If either party is dissatisfied with the results from the agreed upon veterinarian, a second opinion may be obtained at the expense of the dissatisfied party due to the fact that the initial necropsy was performed by a veterinarian agreed upon by both parties.

If the buyer disposes of the deceased snake without meeting the conditions of the terms of service of the seller, the buyer forefeits all rights to a refund, in partial or in full, by the seller.

If the initial health guarantee period has passed, it is then up to you to handle the situation at your discretion. If the buyer still has the deceased animal, I would attempt to work with them to some degree.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

I give a 7 day good health. I wouldn't ship a animal in poor condition. I just don't see how IBD is possible. Flat out I don't have it. He told me the snake was in perfect condition. Then it hit the side on the cage and instantly it went "STARGAZING." Doesn't IBD slowly show signs? THanks Marshall Mauro

If you posted your health guarantee in the ad you placed to sell the snake or gave it to the buyer in writing, you owe him nothing.

But, I would still try to work with him in some way. He will be a great customer and buy ten fold what he did the first time if you help him out. You are not obligated to do so, but I thin it would be beneficial.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

I thought IBD killed ball pythons in less than 2 months.

So where you aware of the spinning tendency in spiders? Did the buyer consult with you before putting the snake down? Did you ever inform the buyer of the spinning tendency in spiders? The only possible liability I can see is in the area of sharing that information. I very much doubt it was IBD as everything I've heard about it is that pythons die in like a month (so even if it was IBD it wasn't from you if that time line is accurate).

you owe this guy jack nothin' .
he can sue 'till his ass falls off , he should be suing his retarded vet.
good luck , ck

I am very sorry for the situation you are in, I know what its like, I had something simular happen to me. It can be pretty scary...

What even more bothers me is how so many so called "Herp Vets" love to jump to the whole IBD cenario...That really bugs me, in my situation the vet scared the owner into thinking it was IBD and after the owner chose to put the animal down and have a necropsy and tests done, the tests came back inconclusive and they couldn't find any sign of IBD.

It seems to be a more and more common thing that Vets jump to the whole IBD diagnosis....almost without asking any logical questions...was the snake over heated, was in contact with any chemicals...things like that....there are many things that can cause nuero problems in snakes, and in the case of Spiders, with a little research on the new owners part, he would known that many spiders do exhibit different degrees of neurological issues.

IBD seems like a pretty scary thing, I have never delt with it, nor do I hope I ever have too. But for vets to jump to the IBD diagnosis without really any proof or real evidence...that is just wrong in my opinion.

I would have to say, the current owner better sure have his ducks lined up in a row, and have some hard evidence that it actually was IBD for anything to happen. Just cause a Vet says it might be is a Joke in my opinion...and won't hold up in any court...at least it shouldn't.

That is the sucky side of snake breeding, dealing with "Those Customers"....lol

Best of luck...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I was lucky in that the customer I sold to was very nice, and for sure kept me informed during the whole deal. But it is scary and frustrating to be told a snake you sold somebody might have IBD, when you know it doesn't.

For the guy to leave nasty messages and threaten to take you to court is uncalled for. The guy should have known about spiders beforehand....

Sorry you are having to go threw that.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I am no breeder, but having done many rescues, I have also dealt with vets more times than I can count. In my experience, IBD is the "easy diagnosis" for many vets. In other words, when a vet has no other explaination, they like to diagnose IBD. Of course this doesn't apply to all vets, but it does to more than we would all like to believe.
IMO, you are being far too kind by even entertaining the thought of helping this guy out. He is a jerk that is harassing you for no reason other than ignorance. I commend your patience, because if it were me, I would have lost my temper. (Not a good thing, but I am being honest)
Simply put, I'd tell this guy to shove it, and take his beef to his vet.

....sorry, I get a little defensive when people try to blame others when they are lacking information, and to me it seems like that is exactly what this jerk is doing.
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James.....
"Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought the beast back."

Marshall,

Here is what I would do:

I would print out your question, and all the answers on this thread, and send it to the guy in question, and to his Vet. The possibility of the Spider having IBD is slim. Based on overwhelming evidence, evidence you can find EASILY on almost any Ball forum, the Spider morph has some "balance" issues. I am sure you can find 10 people who own Spiders, to write you a quick email, describing their Spiders "issues" and point out to any reasonable person, VET, Judge, how the Vet's decision to put the snake down was based on improper diagnosis, and that the Spider in quesiton was just exibiting NORMAL Spider tendencies. I would state that you would issue a FULL refund of the purchase price if the Spider is shown to have IBD, based on factual lab data, and not just the opinion of the VET in question.

Dave

Sounds like the guy who went past the W.Y.M.C.A. and said WOW!!! they spelled Macy's wrong.