Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Nueces county, Texas. Two indigos sharing the same space and food resources...well, sorta! These two were kinda grappling for leopard frogs, the slightly larger one chasing off or trying to steal the others catch. The smaller one got a frog after the larger one chased it upstream a bit, but it wasn't a violent thing. I thought I was going to witness an epic sea serpent battle but the bigger one swam quickly up, splashed a bit and the smaller retreated. I did see the smaller one snatch a leopard frog from under the bank and eat it, sorry for the crappy shots. This shows me that at least at this spot , these animals not only share a hibernaculum, but also "share" food resources. I liken this episode to a bully trying to take a smaller ones' lunch money. I don't know if this was a pair or two females, I don't think two males of this size would co-habitate, but I could be wrong. I think it is two females but I didn't bother them. I saw no battle scars, although the big one was slightly parasitized. As long as they have adequate sun, I believe this is a part of their life that they deal with every day. The big one basked for 45 minutes in partial sun, leading me to believe it was successful prevoiusly on its' hunt. The smaller one only basked for 20 minutes, but in full sun, before retiring.

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Todd Hughes

very cool! thanks for sharing!
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www.gradeareptiles.com

My pleasure!
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Todd Hughes

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you posting pics of snakes that I enjoy so much in the wild. It helps me stay focused on making them as happy as they can be.

It's all for you guys! Those look like solid animals!
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Todd Hughes

this the kinda stuff we need to record and investigate....so we can figure out these guys really think.....we have piles of taxonomics, but little true behavioral work....if you were my student...youse getta big phat A for daday...

Thanks, Bob! I am working on a 'lil sumsump'n, need a bit more observational data and better photos, looking into a video soon.
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Todd Hughes

Dear Todd, witnessing any predation in Nature is not easy, you are no doubt skilled and fortunate to see such events. I am absolutely blown away at your ability to see Drys in the wild, thank you for sharing and keep learning and teaching us. You must be amassing a great photo collection, so if it gets slow around here, post 'em, we can't get enough.
Respectfully, Vic

Thanks Vic, I will try and post some more pics, I do have a lot, but a lot are not postworthy! Sometimes I am in the right place, sometimes they appear far away and I have to move into position, but would rather get the notes than risk startling them, there is still so much to observe. This is the only species that I have witnessed feeding, breeding, and all sizes and sexes in one location. I feel truly blessed for these opportunities and it is my pleasure to share them with you all.

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Todd Hughes

Todd,

Thanks for your posts, very good stuff! From what you observed in the field, do you have any feel for the diet of a wild Indigo?

Thanks again,
Ed

>>Thanks Vic, I will try and post some more pics, I do have a lot, but a lot are not postworthy! Sometimes I am in the right place, sometimes they appear far away and I have to move into position, but would rather get the notes than risk startling them, there is still so much to observe. This is the only species that I have witnessed feeding, breeding, and all sizes and sexes in one location. I feel truly blessed for these opportunities and it is my pleasure to share them with you all.
>>
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>>Todd Hughes

I will go with leopard frogs are key, there are almost no other reptiles in the vicinity, so I am going with that as an upgrade, then rodents. I once saw a juvenile looking hard at some small catfish in a drying pond, I believe that is a given, they are opportunists, but I believe they eat frogs and fish as a first meal, and as the photos show, they continue with frogs as a staple for life.
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Todd Hughes

Todd,

Thanks for the info. I'm now feeding my young Indigo snake lizards and occasionally fish (and I would include frogs and snakes as well, but I can't get them easily) because I concluded that it matches their wild diet more closely. That's why I'm very interested in your observations. So far he's doing well, and I only have to clean the cage once every week or two. When he was on a mouse-only diet, it was like a diarrhea-fest every other day.

Not sure what I'm going to do when he gets adult sized, maybe I
need to find a bullfrog and feeder snake supplier!

Thanks again for posting your valuable information.

Ed

>>I will go with leopard frogs are key, there are almost no other reptiles in the vicinity, so I am going with that as an upgrade, then rodents. I once saw a juvenile looking hard at some small catfish in a drying pond, I believe that is a given, they are opportunists, but I believe they eat frogs and fish as a first meal, and as the photos show, they continue with frogs as a staple for life.
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>>Todd Hughes

Ed, I wouldn't feed him lizards or frogs, as he may key on these. Rodents make up a large part of the diet, and carry no parasites that I am aware of. Lizards and frogs, on the other hand do. Your snake will never be a wild indigo hopefully and does not have the ability to get to the required heating and cooling necessary to combat these parasites. Some posts way back I believe I stated that some of these observed animals were heavily parisitized. You would not want your beloved pet and costly investment to get sick. It just is not in the realm of abilities for 99% of us to provide the full range of options for them to thermoregulate. Unless you had an outdoor enclosure with a rock lined pit dug down at least 4 feet, I would stick to rodents, chicks, maybe quail, and occasional fish, that were farm raised, the fish you could probably feed from a fish market, fresh water species. We just don't know all there is to know yet, but we do know about frogs and lizards carrying parasites. I am glad that my observations are interesting, but they are only that right now, observations, and I would feel horrible if any of my advice led to the death of even one snake. For what it's worth, indigos are well known for their crapfests, whatever the diet. Please rethink this. If you do continue this, keep us informed of the health of the snake. be on the lookout for blisterng type pustules, bad sheds, and in general an ugly looking snake, also check his mouth periodically for flukes.
Remember, your snake is not a wild snake, I would only use lizards and frogs to stimulate appetite or on a wild caught snake
, if it is feeding on rodents, I would continue that routine and suppliment with birds and fish. I know some people that feed their animals road killed snakes, but until you are expert enough to be able to suffer the loss of a few snakes, you should go with what works.
On the other hand, we as a community can learn from all keepers trial and error or success. These are just my opinions and worth .02, lol!
Better kick up the heat on one side for a few hours a day if you intend to continue, and have regular vet visits.
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Todd Hughes

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the advice, I'll put some thought into it. You make a great point regarding the thermoregulation. Obviously I want to do what's best for the snake. But I am freezing the lizards before I feed them, which should hopefully kill any parasites. If you have any evidence that freezing does not kill parasites, please let me know. Then I will have to rethink my strategy!

As far as the crapfests go, I can tell you that his poops
have been much less frequent and less runny (ie, more what I would consider "normal" when compared to other snakes) with the lizard/fish diet than with a mouse diet. So I guess my contention with what you (and most others) are saying is the idea that a high fat diet "works", regardless of resulting digestive/bowel activity. Chronic, daily projectile diarrhea indicates a problem in most animals. Given that, I did analyze the nutritive content of prey items and noticed that an all rodent diet will be very high in fat as compared to even a 50/50 lizard/rodent diet. My conclusion was that their digestive systems are not designed to handle all-rodent (especially farm raised rodents) diet, but a lower-fat, higher protein diet.

So please don't feel any responsibility for my actions, I had already decided how to feed my snake before I even read your posts.

Thanks again for your posts, I really appreciate them. And I will keep you posted. I'm glad someone is interested, actually, because while I realize I'm going against the grain and taking a risk, there is a small chance my "experiment" might actually be of benefit.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed, I wouldn't feed him lizards or frogs, as he may key on these. Rodents make up a large part of the diet, and carry no parasites that I am aware of. Lizards and frogs, on the other hand do. Your snake will never be a wild indigo hopefully and does not have the ability to get to the required heating and cooling necessary to combat these parasites. Some posts way back I believe I stated that some of these observed animals were heavily parisitized. You would not want your beloved pet and costly investment to get sick. It just is not in the realm of abilities for 99% of us to provide the full range of options for them to thermoregulate. Unless you had an outdoor enclosure with a rock lined pit dug down at least 4 feet, I would stick to rodents, chicks, maybe quail, and occasional fish, that were farm raised, the fish you could probably feed from a fish market, fresh water species. We just don't know all there is to know yet, but we do know about frogs and lizards carrying parasites. I am glad that my observations are interesting, but they are only that right now, observations, and I would feel horrible if any of my advice led to the death of even one snake. For what it's worth, indigos are well known for their crapfests, whatever the diet. Please rethink this. If you do continue this, keep us informed of the health of the snake. be on the lookout for blisterng type pustules, bad sheds, and in general an ugly looking snake, also check his mouth periodically for flukes.
>> Remember, your snake is not a wild snake, I would only use lizards and frogs to stimulate appetite or on a wild caught snake
>>, if it is feeding on rodents, I would continue that routine and suppliment with birds and fish. I know some people that feed their animals road killed snakes, but until you are expert enough to be able to suffer the loss of a few snakes, you should go with what works.
>> On the other hand, we as a community can learn from all keepers trial and error or success. These are just my opinions and worth .02, lol!
>> Better kick up the heat on one side for a few hours a day if you intend to continue, and have regular vet visits.
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>>Todd Hughes

agreed, the fat content is something that hasn't really been worked out, and I think you have to freeze an item for a month, killing MOST parasites. I believe in the wild these things feed and hunt almost daily, burning optimum fuel, except for when really swollen with eggs or in a shed cycle. Then they are down under for as long as it takes to finish said cycle, only to be up and ravenous again! I think as I said, they are opportunistic, and probably use less energy hunting frogs and fish than other species, but when older and active, need substantial prey items. So they eat whatever they find successfully, whether rodent, bird, fish reptile or amphibian.I don't think they can overpower a raccoon but bunnies are not out of the question. Keep us posted on your data! I will keep you posted on mine!
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Todd Hughes

Maybe try frozen frog legs from the grocery store. You could boil them first to be extra safe. They would be expensive but might make a nice treat once in a while.

Thanks, not a bad idea. I've never tried frog legs either,
maybe I'll split a pack with him.

BTW, if anyone is interested, I used the following study
to check out the nutritional breakdown of different prey
items:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

Thanks,
Ed

Dear Todd, what would happen if you were to gently "liberate" a live mouse or small rat in the field of view/upwind of these snakes? I have done that when viewing birds of prey, and with crickets or Zoophobas worms on lizards to get better photos. Maybe they feed mostly on cold blooded prey? Tell us what you think about diet items for "your" wild population. thanks, Vic

I have thought of feeding the indies some "snacks" from the mouse room, but would never do this as they might contaminate them. I know it sounds funny given that these animals can be heavily parisitized, but they have their own way of dealing with their own world, and I wouldn't put these guys in any unnecessary danger. I could never live with that. I am going to stick with frogs and fish and natricines first, then as they grow, anything they can overpower. And I believe they try everything when they feel confident enough. I have seen one chase a cotton rat at breakneck speed! Small rabbits would not be out of the question, I have seen the pic of a large red coachwhip eating a rabbit. Small turtles, eggs, I wonder if this is part of the reason for a decline in box turtles! I truly believe they are tied to water sources when young, and the females stay closer to permanent water than males.
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Todd Hughes