Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone ever crossed a corn snake with a Bairds? If so, what has been produced?

Yes, it can be done an it has been done, many times. I see those hybrids in the classifieds every year. They look nice as juveniles, bright red blotches on a silver grey background. However, as they mature they turn into a not so attractive, rather drab brownish snake. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. But what's the bloody point doing this anyway? If you want a snake looking like a Miami phase Cornsnake, then by all means get yourself a Miami phase Cornsnake. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Thanks for replying. I was just wondering what the result was, like you said if they're gonna turn out like a corn morph then imo there is no point, but if something different resulted in the breeding then I'd consider trying.

Thanks again.
Mel

Well, they are slightly different, off course. Just not the 'Wow, what is that?!' kind of different. Problem is that they are so similar to normal Cornsnakes, they probably will be bred to normal Cornsnakes by someone some day, resulting in hybrids even more similar to Cornsnakes, and so on, and so on.

And here's another thing: Hybrids do not have any natural history whatsoever. So what's left when the novelty wears off? Right, nothing. In a best case scenario, a hybrid merely is just an intermediate stepping stone in an endless quest for the 'ultimate' hybrid. In many cases however, it will spend most of it's short but nevertheless miserable life as a wrongfully labeled junksnake in some lousy pet store.

Breeding hybrids is pointless, IMHO.

How VERY right you are!.........one day, folks will go to reptile shows and see many animals in deli cups simply labeled......"snake".

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

when people started owning dogs they were wolves. then after poeple started selectively breeding wolves for differant traits and colors and sizes then selectivly bred them further and eventually they became what we call "breeds" and not species.
so in a sense all we are doing by "hybridising" is creating breeds.
canis lupis - the wolf
canis familiaris - all domesticated desendants of wolves
taxonomic nomencalture is a made up bunch of words for people to distinguish between species. when species get domesticated and removed from the wild for our purposes "species" starts to become irrelevant and "breeds" start to be relevant.
angus beef, border collie, maine coon cat, palomino horse.
once the reptile people start to realize this and quite thinking like nazis all will fall into place.
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

When you start seeing the general public walking around with snakes on leashes, then I could at least entertain the thought!

Nobody is making "breeds" out there, or even keeping any line of consistency either. You might as well just reach into a big bag of assorted snakes, and breed whatever two snakes you have a hold of when your hand comes out! ....come on man, this really can't be argued,.....unless arguing just makes it more fun.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

doug what does people walking snakes on leashes have to do with it? their are people out their trying to establish their breeds and their are some out their that are close to it!! many with great consistancy.
also name 5 dog breeds that have every puppy look exactly the same!! their is always a degree of differentiation even among "pure" species and breeds.
and yes getting you going does make it more fun!!!
do-ta-doh doug
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

That simply meant dogs are not snakes, and apples are not oranges, so they really don't apply well to this issue.

My Mom(rest her soul) was a true icon in the "dog world" and was known by thousands of dog fanciers for her vast knowledge of breeding, showing, grooming, judging, obedience training, etc...

She could teach some folks a thing or two about dog breeds, and how/why they came about, and much much more. Most dogs originated for very specific reasons,.. for tasks that had to be performed.

I don't recall the last time one of MY snakes did any work, or perform a specific task for me like pulling my sled or something.
If you can get one of your hybrids to do anything besides pooping, by all means let me know, and I will surely start producing some!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

all we are doing by "hybridising" is creating breeds.

Yes, I spoke of this many times as it relates to genetic purity and genetic diversity. When true hybrid "breeds" are established I think you see hybridizers making the exact same complaints as purists. A true hybrid breed will require a specific recipe, or combo and I think you will see hybrid keepers complaining because a Cornduran has been tainted with Cal King, or some such.
This also speaks about genetic diversity. Sure hybrids may display vigor initially but when established breeds are created and accepted it will be just as hard for the serious hybrizer to outbreed as it currently is for the purist.
The only think I want people to see is that so called pure snakes are the foundation for everything, including the hybrid "breeds" of the furute. If purity is considered a useless concept in the captive environment, ultimatly hybrid breeders will suffer too because there will be no "ingredients" left for the recipe, or specific combo, they wish to achieve.

Seen any pure Quaretaro Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis ruthveni) lately? Or what about Variable Kingsnakes (L. mexicana thayeri)?I haven't seen any in years, while they once used to be quite common. Hybrids however, composed of one or both of the above mentioned species, can be found on any reptile show by the dozens.

Take the Louisiana Pine Snake (Pituophis ruthveni), a critically endangered species. You mix a Bull Snake (Pituophis catenifer sayi) with a Northern Pine Snake (P. m. melanoleucus), and bingo! There's your Louisiana Pine Snake lookalike, 200 bucks each, and yes we ship nationwide. It happens.

There are still some people out there who actually read books, become intrigued by the natural history of snakes in general or a certain species in particular, and decide it's something they would like to bring to their homes to observe and enjoy. So if I buy a Cornsnake, or a Quaretaro Kingsnake, or a Louisiana Pine Snake, I actually want it to be exactly that and nothing else. It may not matter to you, but it is very important to me.

i by no means think it is not important i too enjoy pure species just as much as my hybrids i just believe that their is a line and i stand in the middle. i like em both.
i have yet to meet a fan of hybrids go around bashing pure snakes and saying their junk just because they prefer hybrids i think thier is a better way to voice opinions on the matter but most on here dont seem to think that way.
those who dont like hybrids will be disappointed in the short future, hybrids are on the upswing and will be the next best thing and because of those dedicated to pure species their will still be some available to everyone as well
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

>>There are still some people out there who actually read books, become intrigued by the natural history of snakes in general or a certain species in particular, and decide it's something they would like to bring to their homes to observe and enjoy. So if I buy a Cornsnake, or a Quaretaro Kingsnake, or a Louisiana Pine Snake, I actually want it to be exactly that and nothing else. It may not matter to you, but it is very important to me.

I certainly agree with you there. I have always been interested in the natural history of snakes, and read quite a lot. Also, through field herping I have had the good fortune to see them in their natural habitats. As I have said in one post, I have produced emoryi x guttata crosses, but (I might not have mentioned) the rest of my collection are 'pure' animals and many are locality animals. So, I like both pure and hybrid (at least one) animals, but also want whatever I get to be what it is supposed to be.

-Toby
-----
The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I think either you got the wrong impression of my post, or I am interpreting yours wrongly.
I don't keep hybrids. I keep mainly locality pure graybands, pyros and subocs. Much of my stock I have collected myself. I highly value pure species/subspecies and in particular those of known locality.
Where I said "I want people to see is that so called pure snakes are the foundation for everything" I was speaking against a popular trend, that of discounting the entire concept of purity. I have heard it argued several times that there is no such thing as a pure snake in captivity. I do not believe in that theory. I believe our understanding of what a pure snake is is subjective to our own incomplete understanding of these animals, but I do not believe that we should discount the concept. I believe it is worthwhile to attempt to preserve pure lines in captivity, to the best of our understanding of what a pure line is.

As for the ruthveni and thayeri. I have a line of ruthveni that comes from a wild caught male, originally collected by the late Lloyd Lemke. The founding female to my line was a captive born specimen that I got from Ric Blair and he produced her from animals that entered the USA prior to any albino ruthveni. So I am reasonably confident my ruthveni are pure. As for thayeri I have some but unfortunately I don't have much backround on them. I have one black female from a very old line of Steve and Kelli Hammack. They got theirs from Garstka himself. I wish I had a pair of these but unfortunatly I don't. My other thayeri come from Tim Gebhart and Dan Vermilya. Both Tim and Dan are very respected for having pure lines but I have little specific knowledge about where their thayeri came from.
In fact the absence of good records on current lines of Mexican Lampropeltis is one of the primary reasons why I value the concept of maintaining pure lines of snakes. It seems back when these were available right from the wild we did not know what we had enough to appreciate it. Fancy colors were all we were concerned about and now these lines are virtually lost to the hobby. I fear the same for many python species that are just begining to be hybridized in captivity. In 20 or 30 years will all stocks of Angolan pythons, Womas, Carpet pythons, etc. be called into question? Or what about Asian Rats? How long until they begin to be hybridized and how long until we can no longer import pure stocks to outbreed?
I do not think we should stop hybridizers from doing what they do but I think all people should ask themselves these questions before they buy or make a hybrid, and especially before they discount the concept or value of purity in captive herps.

I must have misunderstood your intentions entirely. Seems like we see things pretty much the same way after all.

Thanks, I hope I didn't sound upset. I wasn't. It's just sometimes when I start talking about locality and such I tend to go on and on.

"I think you see hybridizers making the exact same complaints as purists"

i would say that you are 100% correct i could see that happening as well! and i never thought about it in that way!!!
many hybrid lovers will probaly start complaining when other stuff gets mixed in with a breed once established. but on the other side their will be people in the middle like myself that will just turn around and start trying to establish that recipe as its own breed.

"it will be just as hard for the serious hybrizer to outbreed as it currently is for the purist"

i actually believe it will be harder for hybridisers to outcross their lines and diversity will greatly effected. those out their will all be trying to establish differant looks and traits so if i try and outcross i will have to find another "breed" similiar to my own in appearance and genetics in order to get the fresh blood in my line.

"If purity is considered a useless concept in the captive environment, ultimatly hybrid breeders will suffer too because there will be no "ingredients" left for the recipe, or specific combo, they wish to achieve"

this is also true and i retract that statement("purity is considered a useless concept in the captive environment"!

its not an entirely useless concept, but the only way any of us could believe an animal is "pure" is if we went out and captured the parent animals or selves. otherwise their is no way to tell and just a bunch of guessing.
the theory of "purity" in regards to animals based on taxonimic nomenclature is a mute point. classifications change to often, the diversity of animals within any specific range and natural integrades make it impossible to truly consider "purity"
of any given animal.
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

>>>the diversity of animals within any specific range and natural integrades make it impossible to truly consider "purity".

LOL!,....PURITY...to many of those that are NOT familiar with it as far as snakes go is...."as described by taxonomy"....NOTHING more, NOTHING less. Again, I'm not talking about only ratsnakes here either! many others too!

And yes, it IS HARD to consider "purity" when there are many folks running around "cramming" as MANY different species/ssp. of animal as humanly possible into ONE SNAKE!!!!LOL

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"its not an entirely useless concept, but the only way any of us could believe an animal is "pure" is if we went out and captured the parent animals or selves."

Of the 12 lines of snakes I breed, 5 of them were started in just the way you described. I collected them myself. Not neccessarily you, but many people seem to think this is a rare occurence. In fact almost everybody I know has at least one line that they started by themselves. What we all wonder is how long we will have the ability to do this and what species/subspecies might be lost to the hobby in the future, either through direct contamination through hybridization or through lack of interest in keeping pure lines going. In the late 80's to the 90's many hobbyist seem to forget about keeping pure lines of Mexican lampropeltis. It may not be that hybridization infiltrated all those lines but certainly the existence of hybrids, combined with gaps in most records of Mexican lampros has created a situation today where virtually all Mexican lampros are questioned. Now today many seem to justify this loss by negating the concept of purity, simply because it isn't fully understood. Or because there are conflicting definitions. While we hobbyists argue about what is a pure snake we are losing access to them. So I don't argue against hybrids but I hope people at least attempt to preserve and think about pure lines.
BTW please don't take this post as being directed at you, I am just discussing some thoughts on this matter.

i myself have had many lines of non hybrid snakes and will have more again. i love pure snakes just as much as the hybrids. im glad their are people out their that do try as hard as they can to keep legitimate lines.
i just take offense to statements like junk snakes and feeder snakes, hybrids are no good. this puts me down like i dont have a place in in this hobby. when we(hybrid lovers) dont put down purist's making them feel out of place.
im trying just as hard to establish lines as you are trying to keep them pure. i just believe that their is a place is this hobby for everyone and that yes opinions shoild be shared but that everyone should understand BOTH points of veiw.
im not directing this at you either, but you seem to have a thoughtful way of writing your opinions which makes it easier to post replies to.
thank you for thinking before you type(i know i dont always)
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

Agreed, both are worthy pursuits.

There is a place in the hobby for hybrids.Its called the freezer.LOL........

Actually pet-co needs snakes from time to time.

L8r Shannon

Many of which I have tried to convey to others.

and alot of what I post isn't meant to be necessarily directed to the poster, but to whoever will get some benefit from reading it. It is indeed a VERY complex issue that just can't really be covered by a few posts, at least in my case.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

the 'ultimate' hybrid. In many cases however, it will spend most of it's short but nevertheless miserable life as a wrongfully labeled junksnake in some lousy pet store.
>

how would being a corn/bairdi cross make it's life miserable and shortened? facts here not hear-say or opinion. I want proof it's life will be shorter and more miserable. You make these statements as fact so lets see some proof.
It obviously doesn't know it is a hybrid.
And in actuality the pictures of bairdi/corn crosses I have seen look pretty damn good and are easily recogniseable as more then just corn.

Just because YOU don't like them doesn't mean they are the scourge of the earth.

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I'm sorry, please don't argue on my behalf, I only wanted to know if it had been done or not

Mel

>>I'm sorry, please don't argue on my behalf, I only wanted to know if it had been done or not
>>
>>Mel

Yes, it has been done
Some people like them, some don't.
They aren't evil or inferior.
They are what they are, hybrids.
It just bugs me when I see these statements spoken as fact when they are obvious opinions.
Stated as opinion....fine, as fact...not so fine
and that is my opinion

and remember Mel, Your question was a good question.
You asked if it had been done...
You didn't ask for the ramifications of said mix.
anything we write on these forums is open for debate.
Sometimes it gets heated sometimes it just gets boring....the way of the forums...
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy, I agree with both of your posts on this subject, and I would also like to reassure the original poster that the 'heat' here has nothing to do with them. This is a touchy subject on this forum which has sometimes been a really long and boring argument.

Fact: One of the species mentioned here is the corn snake (Elaphe (Pantherophis) guttata guttata). Corns have been hybridized with emoryi and obsoleta since nearly as long as they have been popular in herpetoculture.

Opinion: I think it would be very difficult to say whether any captive bred corn snake or line of captive bred corns is 'pure' these days barring dna testing (and maybe not even then), and my personal opinion is that captive lines of guttata are probably the most generic 'species' in existance. I almost cannot believe that there are people who worry about hybrids dirtying 'pure' captive lines of corns. The people who are striving for pure lines of any animal go to pains (keep locality data, etc.) to make sure that their lines are pure.

Furthermore, imho once you remove an animal from the wild, you immediately end natural selection, so if creating hybrids is unnatural, then so is any captive contrived breeding. Even if you breed two pure animals, if they are not from the same locality, you are producing offspring that would not have existed in nature, and may even be proven to be hybrids some day. Example: Frank Burbrink has recently proposed that obsoleta be split into three different species, (Eastern, Midland, and Western). The snakes at the northern ends of these species' ranges all fall into the phenotype of the black rat snake. However, (if you agree with Burbrink) if you breed a black rat from New England to a black rat from Missouri, you will have hybrid offspring that look like 'pure' black rat snakes. I am neither for nor against Burbrink's proposal.

As for hybrids escaping or being released into the wild to ruin wild populations with mixed genes, I don't think this is much of a problem. Any release or escape is potentially a bad thing, and stupid people do apparently release their unwanted alien animals. This is more of a problem with the wrong people having pet snakes of any kind, whether hybrids or simply non-native species.

On people passing off hybrids as 'pure' animals, well there are all kinds of dishonest people out there. I think the majority who produce hybrids are honest about their ancestry.

-Toby Brock
-----
The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I totally agree with what you said as well as Jimmy's posts on the matter.

n/p
-----
The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

What did you think of my post..."plus my 2 cents makes alot of sense"?.....please read it carefully.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, I've read it over a couple times, and I agree and disagree on some points. As I said in my post, it is my OPINION that there are not many 'pure' corns or lines of corns existing in the hobby. I do not find this to be a problem. These snakes were produced with the intention of making 'pretty' pet snakes. It is also my opinion that those who want to keep their captive lines pure will find a way. I am not much of a corn snake guy, but do keep some and have produced some hybrids (guttata x emoryi meahllmorum, which I label as hybrids with full disclosure of ancestry. This is a well-known cross that has been done with corns for a long time, to produce creamsicles and candycane corns. Why do this? Because I want to produce my own line using animals special to me, and also out of scientific curiosity as to what the eventual creamsicles will look like. Also, until recently (with the new taxonomy) I considered emoryi and guttata to be within the same species. In the case of breeding emoryi to guttata, this does not create weak, inferior animals, but rather the opposite. This cross produces babies that are larger, stronger and easier to start feeding than pure corn snakes. Have you ever heard the term 'hybrid vigour'?

Having said all this, I will also say that I am not entirely pro-hybrid. There are many crosses which I do not like, but feel that it is the right of the people who make them to do so. It is the people who produce hybrids that try to pass them off as 'pure' whatever that are the problem. The hobby has its share of dishonest people. I do understand what you are saying about hybrids polluting pure lines, but in the case of corn snakes in general, this is a moot point - captive lines are truly generic now.

I realize that my 'smoke blowing' does not put me on any kind of moral high ground, and these are my opinions.

-Toby Brock
-----
The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby,....I had a very long post(not nasty either) in reply to yours, but it took so long to type up, when I hit the "post message" button, it was GONE!!!!...GRRR!, now I'm too tired and my head hurts. Oh well!

~ Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Toby,....I had a very long post(not nasty either) in reply to yours, but it took so long to type up, when I hit the "post message" button, it was GONE!!!!...GRRR!, now I'm too tired and my head hurts. Oh well!
>>
>>
>>
>> ~ Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Sorry to hear that, Doug. Happens to me too - hate it when that happens.

-Toby
-----
The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I agree with everything you just said. For the sake of argument, I'd like to add here that repeated inbreeding may be much more harmfull than incidental crossbreeding(*). The good news is that we can do without both.

* With every generation of inbreeding animals wich are related in the first degree (brother to sister, mother to son, etc), on average you loose 25% of the original genepool's genetic variability. This is not just my opinion, it's a scientific fact. It's also a fact that the genetic composition of closely related species, like for instance Pantherophis guttatus and P. emoryi, differs only a few percents. So inbreeding an already highly inbred Cornsnake multimorph again and again may (in some cases) actually compromise it's genetic integrity more than breeding it to another (but closely related) species like, say, a Great Plains Ratsnake. My point here is that purity isn't everything. Outbreeding on a consistent basis is just as important.

Thanks for the info on inbreeding.

-Toby
-----
The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I just wanted to give some balanced feedback on the subject, before the forum nazi's step in and the issue gets nasty once again. Thank you for approaching this subject rationally.

>>Jimmy, I agree with both of your posts on this subject, and I would also like to reassure the original poster that the 'heat' here has nothing to do with them. This is a touchy subject on this forum which has sometimes been a really long and boring argument.
>>
>>Fact: One of the species mentioned here is the corn snake (Elaphe (Pantherophis) guttata guttata). Corns have been hybridized with emoryi and obsoleta since nearly as long as they have been popular in herpetoculture.
>>
>>Opinion: I think it would be very difficult to say whether any captive bred corn snake or line of captive bred corns is 'pure' these days barring dna testing (and maybe not even then), and my personal opinion is that captive lines of guttata are probably the most generic 'species' in existance. I almost cannot believe that there are people who worry about hybrids dirtying 'pure' captive lines of corns. The people who are striving for pure lines of any animal go to pains (keep locality data, etc.) to make sure that their lines are pure.
>>
>>Furthermore, imho once you remove an animal from the wild, you immediately end natural selection, so if creating hybrids is unnatural, then so is any captive contrived breeding. Even if you breed two pure animals, if they are not from the same locality, you are producing offspring that would not have existed in nature, and may even be proven to be hybrids some day. Example: Frank Burbrink has recently proposed that obsoleta be split into three different species, (Eastern, Midland, and Western). The snakes at the northern ends of these species' ranges all fall into the phenotype of the black rat snake. However, (if you agree with Burbrink) if you breed a black rat from New England to a black rat from Missouri, you will have hybrid offspring that look like 'pure' black rat snakes. I am neither for nor against Burbrink's proposal.
>>
>>As for hybrids escaping or being released into the wild to ruin wild populations with mixed genes, I don't think this is much of a problem. Any release or escape is potentially a bad thing, and stupid people do apparently release their unwanted alien animals. This is more of a problem with the wrong people having pet snakes of any kind, whether hybrids or simply non-native species.
>>
>>On people passing off hybrids as 'pure' animals, well there are all kinds of dishonest people out there. I think the majority who produce hybrids are honest about their ancestry.
>>

I breed emoryi/corn crosses as I'm sure most of you know by now.
I don't mess with any other hybrids but that is just simply because I don't have the desire. I represent everything I sell honestly and openly and agree with everything you wrote above.
I think you put it to words perfectly.
One thing that I have noticed over the last few years is the acceptance of hybrids has actually increased. More and more people are showing an interest in hybrids and there is absolutely no need for people to represent them as pure.
I can actually get more for my creams, motley creams and stripe creams then I can for amels, amel motleys and striped amels.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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As you say, there is no need to sell them as anything but what they are. I agree that there do seem to be plenty hybrid enthusiasts around (at least for emoryi x guttata).

-Toby
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The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I basicly agree with everything you said but I do think this is a little misleading "Furthermore, imho once you remove an animal from the wild, you immediately end natural selection"

IMHO pattern may migrate and there may be reduced "fitness" in terms of captive generations ability to survive in the wild but I find it hard to believe that you can negate all of the thousands of years of naturally aquired traits in just a couple captive generations.

>>I basicly agree with everything you said but I do think this is a little misleading "Furthermore, imho once you remove an animal from the wild, you immediately end natural selection"
>>
>>IMHO pattern may migrate and there may be reduced "fitness" in terms of captive generations ability to survive in the wild but I find it hard to believe that you can negate all of the thousands of years of naturally aquired traits in just a couple captive generations.

I apologize for anything that seems misleading. I may have mis-spoken there, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. I totally agree with you that not just a couple, nor even several, generations of captive breeding can negate thousands (or millions) of years of evolution. What I meant was that once an animal is removed from its habitat and bred to another animal from a different locality, you have produced a pairing of animals which would have never met. Therefore, the offspring from this pairing may be quite different, at least genetically (if not morphologically) from any offspring that the two animals in question may have produced in the wild.

-Toby Brock
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The Ratsnake Foundation

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

No need to apologize. I think we see two sides of the same coin. Purity in captive stocks is very hard to define, because it is very hard to define in the wild. I think what we can do is try to maintain lines of snakes that are as simlar to natural lines as possible, and that they can be very very similar indeed. Two snakes of the same subspecies but different localities may never meet in the wild but they can, IMHO, be so similar to each other that they are more like each other than like any other. That I think is the beginning of understanding or at least believing in a certain concept of purity in captiviy.

"how would being a corn/bairdi cross make it's life miserable and shortened? facts here not hear-say or opinion. I want proof it's life will be shorter and more miserable. You make these statements as fact so lets see some proof. It obviously doesn't know it is a hybrid."

That's not what I meant to say here at all. Surely, a hybrid won't feel miserable about being a hybrid, and if well taken care of by it's owner, there's no reason whatsoever why it's life should be any shorter than average. The problem is that on the herpetocultural market, less desirable snakes like hybrids often end up with the shortest straw. So they may not feel miserable about being a hybrid, but often (not always) they are treated miserably. If you want to see proof you only have to visit a few pet stores.

"And in actuality the pictures of bairdi/corn crosses I have seen look pretty damn good and are easily recogniseable as more then just corn."

Like I said before, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"Just because YOU don't like them doesn't mean they are the scourge of the earth."

Again, that's not what I said. In fact, I used to be into hybrids myself until about ten years ago, but then I stepped out for all the reasons mentioned before. I'm not judging anyone. All I'm saying is that hybrids cause problems. I'm quite sure there are plenty of honest and competent hybrid breeders out there. Unfortunately, not ALL of them are honest or educated enough to deal with this responsibility. And some do not even know they are breeding hybrids.

Just another hybrid to corrupt the gene-pool of other animals in collections down the line, be it on purpose, or by mistake. This goes DOUBLE for hybrid junk that is borderline distinguishable from a "pure" animal(as described by taxonomy).

All those crazy combinations of crosses that many seem to be creating nowadays(many times multiple species.ssp) wouldn't be that harmful at all if they where kept from the other pure lineage of the "mainstream", but that is absolutely impossible with time, as they get sold and bred to more of "WHATEVER" by others by the many FOLDS.

It's the snakes that look pretty close to the "real deal" that do the most harm. If they ALL where very obvious to people, and you could instantly tell with certainty, then THAT in itself wouldn't create a real problem per se. But this just does NOT happen. I'm not just talking about some intergrade ratsnakes here either, I'm talking about snakes that have as many combinations of species as you could humanly fit into one snake!
anyone that thinks these snakes have not, will not, and cannot create havoc with snake collections throughout, is just simply "BLOWING SMOKE"........end of story...

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree completely, especially as there isn't a huge reptile following in Northern Ireland, and most petshops aren't knowledgable enough, so if it looks like a corn, then it must be a corn to most of them. Something different, however, is always appreciated by the existing community, which is why I was researching before I jumped into this possible breeding.

Thanks for all your input guys, I'll give this hybridsation a miss and concentrate on breeding my corns to corns, kings to kings and so on

Amen to that. Now that hybrid popularity has gone down the drain, I actually see a lot of them being sold as normal Cornsnakes. While first generation hybrids are still relatively easy to spot, with each generation the hybrid tends to become more difficult to differentiate from the ancestral species it has been outcrossed with, Cornsnakes in most cases. Some people may be breeding hybrids without even knowing it.

Without even KNOWING it!

Milks and Kings are just as bad, if not WORSE!

I have been asked by numerous people (especially lately) posting the question...."what is this?"...that says it ALL!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The animal(floridana/brooksi) in my post was from wild-caught parents captured from southern Miami/Dade, County, and wasn't meant to be misunderstood as having any hybrid lineage whatsoever as I was posting about. No mistaking what that is!..LOL

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Perhaps with a slight touch of Chipola River King? Now that we're at it: What about those socalled 'Blaze' goini's? I have seen brooksi x goini crossbreeds looking EXACTLY alike.

I agree,....some of the getula complex can be hard to tell when intergraded. Her is a pic of the same female brooksi a little later as she became lighter(as expected). She, and her male sibling are DEFINITELY from wild-caught parents from southern Miami/Dade.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Eastern King food.
-Phil
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Stand for something,
or you'll fall for anything!

I really wonder how many PURE corns even exist anymore in collections? Unless I am mistaken, it seems that two of the most common "crosses/Hybrids" to date in corns are the creamsicle and the Ultramels. Most persons seem to just accept them and just overlook the fact they are hybrids/crosses.

Now days I would think you would really have to do some deep digging to find corns morphs that didn't have emoryi blood or some other species in them. Now with all the ultra crosses, they will be the next hybrid that is polluting the gene pool but are just being accepted. Seems funny that the guy who originated them claimed to have made a pure ultramel and a ultramel witht he grey rats snake, but suddenly everyone's ultramel line came from the pure stock, lol. Guess the hybrid stock just all decided to die off huh?

For the record, I am against hybrids also and do my best to purchase from breeders that are trusted and well known, however, I still feel there are tons of corns out there with Emoryi and Grey Rat blood in them and you just have to really try your best to find the pure ones. Oh well, this was my 2 cents worth on this whole subject.