Reptile & Amphibian Forums

that is a nice brooksi, congrats.

For those that are curious, Jeff Lecompte also has a pic of a striped hypo in his photo gallery (user name jjl).

I tried for several generations to get partially striped hypos to reproduce that trait or increase/improve it, but was not able to. Maybe I should have tried another ten years, hahaha. There may be genetic striping out there or striping linked to a recessive trait, but I wasn't able to do it on my own, nor have I seen anyone demonstrate it with consistently. Anyone else? I would love to see someone get it right.

daveb

That snake got no attention.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Probably because no one thinks it's genetic?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Probably because no one thinks it's genetic?

No but because I thought it would wake you up. Been taking a long nap there buddy?

Tom,
That snake is from terry Walter stock.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

My snakes have been cooling for about a month. I am on vacation... I just don't have much to photograph and I'd rather post pics than argue on here which is very easy to do LOL.
So unless the post said "definite genetic striped brooksi" I will go back to the couch....
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Well then go back to sleep. We'll wake you when the next big thing appears.

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

.

Rainer,
I love the possitive attitude. I'm sure future herpetoculturalists will definitely have their interests peaked by your example. This elitist attitude that is prevailing in the hobby today is really starting to turn me off to useing resources such as this forum. I guess some people just don't get it and love to make themselves out to be sooo important.
Good luck with that.
-Phil
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Stand for something,
or you'll fall for anything!

You're how far north of Valdosta???????????Chris??

Where is that, right outside the snake room?

reako45

* rule #1 Must take beverage before entering premises.

* rule #2 Beverages MUST be consumed in a timely manner.

* rule #3 ALL beverages MUST be completely consumed before
leaving room to dispose of empty cans/bottles.

* rule #4 All personel MUST re-comply with rule #1 in a timely manner BEFORE re-entering.

hahahahaha!......at least this is what usually happens when I visit friends "snake" rooms!

~Doug

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Cool, Coors Light. I hope that means some chicks will be there. G'night
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Rainer, thats not what I meant when I said you're better off building your own Keg-erator!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Now that is a beautiful photo Rainer. But where's the German Lagers? The British brown ales, the Czech Pilsners? Get those and your fridge will look too much like mine, so i guess the genetic diversity relates to refrigerator contents as well as snakes. Again, nicest photo I have seen in quite some time.

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me , than have a frontal lobotomy."

That snake was not striped, it was abberant. A striped snake is only striped when its ALL striped. If not its an abberant or partical striped.

Am I wrong here, or am I looking at the wrong snake? Heck, I think its generous to call a snaked striped when is 80% striped. Cheers

I tend to agree Frank.
I am not fond of stripes that are not perfect anyway, though
Seems the aberrancies in pattern with FL kings are common and even more so the lighter the animals get...
It's a pretty snake and from what I saw it was albino?
Most aberrancies I've seen were in the hypo FL.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

...the term "striped" used very loosely, just check out classifieds and look at the "striped" boas..
Seems like if they have 3" of tail "stripe". Well then they qualify as striped!
(there are obviously some very striped animals, that's not what I'm talking about here)
I really don't get it.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Mark,....AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!..LOL!

I've always thought that was absolutely ridiculous too!

I'm surprised that some of those boa dudes can look at themselves in the mirror after trying to market some of those boas off as STRIPED, with only a couple inches of striping in the tail!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

How many longnoses are in that pea gravel, lol? I will be wasting lots of time trying to pull stripers off my South Plains rat this spring by breeding him to all the females he can handle, including the mate I caught him with. I hear it is not been reproducable, we will see!

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Todd Hughes

Agree. I don’t consider that striped. At least not in the way a Goini can be truly striped. It is an aberrancy that shows in the pattern genetics that I believe will eventually be proved to be connected to another aberrancy. Maybe something bad, you never know at first. Could be fertility problem, or key to a yet unseen pattern trait. Maybe the pattern will vanish, who knows. This “striping” started showing up in hypos up around the neck on some, so we may be getting somewhere with that almost complete effect there.

A couple of things. With many snakes(species) I have worked with, striping can indeed be bred out thru selective breeding. So yes, this animals most likely could be bred out to enhance and someday make it fully striped. Then I would call it a striped snake. Until then, its partially striped.

Also breeding in some many "other" traits, may indeed hinder the development of the striping trait.

What I am thinking here is, that snake is screaming to be totally striped, but the inclusion of other traits, are preventing that from happening.

I would first develop a strong striped trait, then bred it into other traits. Or in this case, ONLY breed for striping and not think about what that causes to the "other" traits.

I am not a believer of hidden deleterious traits. Of course they could happen, but pattern abberancies and necessary physical traits(functional traits) do not seem to be tied together. Pattern and color seems to be a very "weak" with snakes and can change very quickly. I imagine its a gift to cope with short and long term weather changes.

Of course you can inbreed enough to cause poor physical traits, but there is a simple cure, to outbreed again.

Its been my experience that striping is developed first in the embryo, then that striping breaks into bands or blotching(breaking the striping). Many premature snakes are striped.

So all it takes to allow a blotched or banded snake to become striped is to eliminate the pattern development. Which is why its so common in the first place. Its simply not a huge difference or change. Of course, this may not be true in all snakes, but it is common. Cheers

” Pattern and color seems to be a very "weak" with snakes and can change very quickly. I imagine its a gift to cope with short and long term weather changes.”

Perhaps we are seeing a pattern developing right before our eyes, similar to the way the snakes would adapt to weather conditions, etc in nature. All these generations later, these captive creations are starting to look like Aspen bedding!

It really made me laugh. And that snake did kinda look like aspen bedding. hahahahahahahahahahaha Thanks

Yeah, I got a good chuckle out of it to but it kinda makes since.

Shannon

many kudos to you and others developing new traits but this one has been left in the ditch. I had always figured that the stripe would come about the way it evolved in the corn snake from the motley pattern. aberrant hypo brooksi and motleys both had 1)aberrant patterns and 2) patternless ventrals, maybe there just haven't been enough selective breeding done with aberrant hypos to move the trait to the next step. I don't know what the inherent mechanism is for motley, I am pretty sure its not recessive so I believe you get various levels in striping. hey a 80% striped flame hypo would still kick some tin can.

personally I would prefer the striping you see in motleys (thin lines) as opposed to thick lines, but I don't control the gene expression.

daveb

hey a 80% striped flame hypo would still kick some tin can.
thats true dave but unfortunately it would just be claimed a hybrid and dismissed,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

hey a 80% striped flame hypo would still kick some tin can.

thats true dave but unfortunately it would just be claimed a hybrid and dismissed,,,,,,,,,thomas

Actually the opposite is true. Striping in hypos does exist and the hypo gene effect pattern in the visaul form but not in the het (normal) form. Also no striped hypo cal king exist that are of the same hypo gene found in Florida kings.

A striped hypo WOULD be a legitamate stripe and not from a hybrid (aka cal king) cross.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

that kinda blows my hypothsis out of the water, thinking that the "stiped Lav"of this thread was HET hypo???being the only abberants i can recall seeing were hypos.
Maybe its homoz hypo and lav?
Kin to the hybino ,and friend of the Peabino....LOL Chris

rainer are you saying the aberrant striping seen in fla.kings is only legitimate(nonhybridized) in hypo? not lavender? gosh i hate to break to ya...again... but the albino fla. kings ALL of the albino fla.kings were CREATED in the 80's when the e.coast breeders got the albino calis come'on now you know that,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas
Are you just saying that because you purchased all of Terry Walters stock?

. You would have to have been buying and dealing with the breeders who originated the lavenders to know something and then how could you prove it?

Seems like sour grapes.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

yes it is sour grapes at least to some. i did not buy all terrys stock (almost did,still might), i have these 1.3 triple hets from him aside from that the lav i got from j.cherry originated w/terrys line thats it. ive known the cherrys for over 10years and terry for close to that they are diehard purist terry did crosses just like you and just like you he kept them seperate. my beef is if we are gonna lay it out lets l a y i t A L L out fact is there were no amel floridana until the amel calis came around in the 80's now yes some lines look better but lettuce not forgey from whince they ALL came...
sour grapes make goooood wine.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas
I think you are trying to justify you stock from Terry Walter which he admits to being crossed with cal kings to say that all lavender albinos are crosses. That is just deplorable and can really turn a lot of people off on Florida king morphs.

We have been friends in the past and you recall how I explained all this to you over the phone. But what you are doing now on a public web site is casting doubt in people minds. That hurts me and many others who have worked diligently to preserve pure lines of Florida kings. You may want to rethink you stance on this...

..also after you purchased the stock from terry myself and Tom Stevens wanted to give you pure stock just so that these hybrids you have will not hurt the hobby. We figured this would come back at Florida kings in general and that is why we would rather have these animals sold as what they are rather than go round and round with you trying to market these things.

Lets face the truth. You bought these animals cheap and now you want to recoup the investment by selling these as pure or state that Florida kings have nevarious backrounds. I hope that this can be resolved in some way so that you can be happy. We don't want the mess associated with hybrid florida morphs and if we have to, I will offer you some great morphs in exchange for your stock that came from Terry Walters.

Try to understand that some of us depend on our investments and feed our families and provide a roof over our heads by working with them. TRhey are not just an investment for today but for many years to come. Since you are a frequent poster and plan on marketing these snakes as pure I would rather take a loss and make sure these snakes get represented honestly. Email me in private so that we can work something out.

Rainer
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

dude you are SOoooooooo wrong. when the time comes i will sell/represent them as what i feel they are w/full history for the custumer to decide themselves. heres a pic of one of terry's hets taken today,,,,,,,,thomas


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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

here are a few pics of terrys hets. terry assurred me they are/were pure floridana ,,,,,,,,thomas



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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

In what sense do you mean pure? I have heard you say many times there is no such thing as a pure snake. Do you mean they are indistingushable to the common naked eye from pure floridana?
Or do you mean pure in the sense that all their genetic material comes from animals collected in the commonly accepted wild range of floridana?

In what sense do you mean pure? I have heard you say many times there is no such thing as a pure snake. Do you mean they are indistingushable to the common naked eye from pure floridana?
Or do you mean pure in the sense that all their genetic material comes from animals collected in the commonly accepted wild range of floridana?

pure imho doesnt apply w/ssp. i dont beleive there are "pure" subspecies. so if someone were to cross say a calXfla. king imho breeding those 50/50babies to either parent ssp. IE half clutch 50/50cross to either parent then F1's to unrelated pure/true parent ssp. taking those F2's and doing the same, after 5 generations(maybe as few as 3) they would be pure or true(indistinguishable) again. i beleive this is how the albino floridana came to be 25years ago. but i certainly could be wrong. the hets i have pictured from t.walter are suppossed true/pure floridana and certainly look the part to me. some obviously feel they dont or aren't and feel crossing a calXfla.king is a hybrid tainted if you will. if albino fla.kings were created using calkings 25yrs.ago then when/where do you draw the line now?
i feel a hybrid is crossing sp. cornXking,kingXgopher,etc. but even these crosses could imho be bred pure/true/indistinguishable again, for a long while many felt the whiteside trait in fla.kings was brought in from the black ratsnake, whos to say? fact is noone will ever know,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Truly UNBELIEVABLE!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Gee, thanks doug for contributing so much.
,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thank you for the answer. That clarifies your opinion on the concept of purity but I still don't know what you are going to with these snakes specifically. That's actually what I was asking, how you intend to handle the bloodline you have here of these floridana. It seems Rainer has some evidence your line came from crosses, which by the way I did not say yours were hybrids. I never used that word. If they do have Cal in them I would consider them "crosses", or "man-made intergrades".
Also I do respect your right to disagree with Rainer's "evidence" if you have conflicting evidence from the guy you got them from. All in all I guess it doesn't matter to me since I don't keep or intend to keep any floridana in the foreseable future, but I was kinda curious because of the price difference between "pure" morph floridanas and "pure-looking" morph floridanas.

>Thank you for the answer. That clarifies your opinion on the concept of purity but I still don't know what you are going to with these snakes specifically. That's actually what I was asking, how you intend to handle the bloodline you have here of these floridana.

>>>these look the part to me ive talked w/terry alot about them he assures me they are true. should i reproduce w/these it will be morphs lavs., whitesides, stripes and i will represent/sell them as such w/the history of where i aquired them.

>It seems Rainer has some evidence your line came from crosses, which by the way I did not say yours were hybrids. I never used that word. If they do have Cal in them I would consider them "crosses", or "man-made intergrades".
Also I do respect your right to disagree with Rainer's "evidence" if you have conflicting evidence from the guy you got them from.

>>> yes rainer beleives ALL of terrys lines are crosses from a conversation they had, terry told me he did crosses and kept lines pure which seems reasonable and terry assured me the ones i have are true, i will ask terry again at the next herp meeting.

>All in all I guess it doesn't matter to me since I don't keep or intend to keep any floridana in the foreseable future, but I was kinda curious because of the price difference between "pure" morph floridanas and "pure-looking" morph floridanas.

>>> well it matters to me being this line is/has been brought into question. i will represent them like all snakes i sell with full history as i have it. now as to price differances haha that depends on the dealers/sellers as does pure or pure looking morphs or not, honest representation and dishonest, i hate the word pure but i beleive these to be true floridana ive seen the parents and talked w/terry at length which i will again when i see him these wont breed until '09season anyway,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Well, I believe in the term "pure". For me its what is found in the wild even if its a intergrade its pure.
But once you have outcrossed a pure animal even once they will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be pure again.You say 3-5 generations and I have heard 7 generations and thats a bunch of bull crap.You can never breed out other genes.
Even over a few hundred years and 75 generations it would still have some cali in it and would throw off some babies here and there that are questinable at best.

Its just a pet anyways right?

LOL..
Shannon

its nice to hear differant veiwpoints/ opinions. i dont condone crosses especially ones MISrepresented, but its happened w/most captive lines honduran milks are good example...
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Oh Yeah, the hondo thing is a total mess.I know for a fact that there is all kinds of other influences in the "hobby Hondos" today.
Thats another story.
L8 Shannon

let's just throw ALL snakes of pure lineage into the freezer, and lets all just concentrate on the "good stuff" that's been back-bred a few times to resemble pure!..hahahahahahaha!

As long as it "looks" fairly close, that's all that matters...right?

Like I said in my other post pertaining to this utter nonsense,...........UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!

later, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

DENIAL thats whats unbeleivable!!!

>lets all just concentrate on the "good stuff" that's been back-bred a few times to resemble pure!..hahahahahahaha!<

>>>like hondurans
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

The "GENETICS WIZARD"?...........there ain't diddly doo that YOU can tell me about milksnakes.......PERIOD!

Your much better off staying feuding with the others about those Kings,.......what's the deal Thomas?, do you like carrying on several different arguments at the same time on the forum?

I don't dislike you or anything, I just strongly disagree with alot of things, that's all.

In the first place, the post I made was for Shannon to get a chuckle out of anyway, because he also thinks that randomly breeding snakes just for the sake of it is ridiculous.

There's enough animosity on this forum to fill a large city block, so I'm not really sure there's room for much more.

I know the polyzona story, if that's what you're bashing Hondurans about........the whole entire hobby is in trouble with questionable stuff, I see it all the time on a daily basis,.....that is PRECISELY my point, and why I made those remarks in the first place. I hope you can understand where I'm commin' from.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

diddly do,genetics wizard are you for real?

i NEVER claimed to be a wizard of any type. i simply put my OPINION out to where lav.albino floridana originated, and the state of "hobby" hondurans is in that same boat. what i find odd is for someone to preach about "purity" when many of their own lines are crosses. kinda of like an ostrich with its head in the sand,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Sounds reasonable to me, thanks.

rainer the triple het brooks that tom bought from me are the product of breeding a striped lavender albino brooks male to a white sided female. both genes were from tim ricks. the stripe gene, if it is a genetic trait, has been expressed in my breeding group for many years. it first hatched from some back breeding (father x daughter) intended to increase my production of lav. albinos that year (the renumeration was considerably higher then). despite my efforts it has never shown itself to be strictly recessive. I have simalar results when breeding stripe to stripe and stripe to het. it does ocassionally express itself in out crossed breedings. for instance, when I bred the striped lavender albino male to the white sided female one 3x male offspring was striped. I doubt that makes it a co-dom trait as it would be more commonly expressed. the stripe trait "gene" remains a mystery to me. it is inheritable in a reliable fasion. but, it doesn't really fit into any of the typical genetic examples that I'm aware of. I did keep 2.3 of the 3x offspring,including the striped normal appearing 3x male. they will breed next season. perhaps the mystery of how the striped appearance is inherited will unfold in this breeding.

thanks for comin on the forum and stating my hets. are direct from tim ricks lines, terry. hopefully that settles the question as to their lineage/purity for anyone interested. it will be fun to see what pops out in the '09 season,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

heres a pic of the lav from your lines and the gulf coast snow i bred last year. this year im pairing her w/a lav. from m.white

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

yeah i saw it very nice imho def. looks to be from terry walters stock he has a big ole male just like that. i have what terry reffered to as triple hets, he bred his big ole male albino stripe to a whiteside. thus he says het for stripe,albino,& ws . i told him i didnt think striping was reccessive and he said he beleived it to be a type of co-dom.hmmmm ok... irregardless mine will breed in '09 and im hoping for a albino whiteside, and maybe if im lucky it will be "striped" as well as shoot lighting bolts from its arse...
,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

and be 10 feet tall, haha, I love that movie Thomas! Hope you get what you want, I would like to see a pic of a king throwin' bolts!
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Todd Hughes

>> when the time comes i will sell/represent them as what i feel they are w/full >>history for the custumer to decide themselves.

Maybe it will be more clearly stated "when the time comes" -- or if it does. The way it is written here doesn't provide enough information for someone to make an informed decision. If I'm thinking about getting Brooks, no matter a normal or a morph, I want them to be Brooks. For a snake like the Brooks, or an Everglades rat snake, I have to be able to trust that they came from the correct range / locality. I can't tell by looking, I have to believe the seller. If the seller makes broad hints that some types are hybrids I will assume that by outcrossing for genetic diversity, by crossing to combine morphs, in some way they've all been bred together and none are pure. I believe there are pure diamond pythons, that there are pure jungle carpets, but you're making a leap of faith when you buy one. They could have been crossed generations ago and no one could ever tell. Am I supposed to think that since it is "just a kingsnake" it doesn't matter? That's great, thanks.

>Maybe it will be more clearly stated "when the time comes" -- or if it does. The way it is written here doesn't provide enough information for someone to make an informed decision.

>>>sorry, wasnt trying to make any kind of sales pitch to require an informed decision i digress.

>If I'm thinking about getting Brooks, no matter a normal or a morph, I want them to be Brooks.

>>>man me to!!!

>For a snake like the Brooks, or an Everglades rat snake, I have to be able to trust that they came from the correct range / locality. I can't tell by looking, I have to believe the seller.

>>>doesnt this apply to ANY captive animal/cash transaction?trust?

>If the seller makes broad hints that some types are hybrids I will assume that by outcrossing for genetic diversity, by crossing to combine morphs, in some way they've all been bred together and none are pure.

>>>ok but i gotta ask, what is your definition of pure?

>I believe there are pure diamond pythons, that there are pure jungle carpets, but you're making a leap of faith when you buy one. They could have been crossed generations ago and no one could ever tell.

>>>true with ANY sp. or ssp. i would think.

>Am I supposed to think that since it is "just a kingsnake" it doesn't matter? That's great, thanks.

>>>its the same leap you speak of w/diamonds&jungles the good thing w/florida kings(all getula ssp.anyway)is if your really that into locality you can still go catch them yourself. but i doubt many s.fla.wild kings are gonna represent whats seen in the hobby as s.fla.AKA brooksi kings,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,
Is that how you justify your arguements? With shallow answers?
I'm sorry, but he has a good point! If he is in the market for a Dade, Co. Floridana, and pays for one, that is what he should recieve! Despite your taxonomy debate! If I pay for a Scissors Crossing Californiae that is what I should get not a Antelope Valley Californiae or whatever ssp., sp. YOU decide to define it as!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

>Is that how you justify your arguements? With shallow answers?

>>>what argument phill? that amel floridana were created by amel calikings in the 80's not an arguement just an opinion.

>I'm sorry, but he has a good point! If he is in the market for a Dade, Co. Floridana, and pays for one, that is what he should recieve! Despite your taxonomy debate! If I pay for a Scissors Crossing Californiae that is what I should get not a Antelope Valley Californiae or whatever ssp., sp. YOU decide to define it as!
>>> i agree one should get what they pay for. FYI any/all snakes i sell i give complete history on. despite my taxonomy debate? what taxonomy debate??? lost me there...

nice try.........
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

i agree one should get what they pay for. FYI any/all snakes i sell i give complete history on. despite my taxonomy debate? what taxonomy debate??? lost me there...

Thomas,
In the past you have made the arguement that Getula are Getula and that there is nothing wrong with breeding a L. g. californiae with a L. g. getula or a L. g. floridana, for, in your opinion, they are all Lampropeltis getula. Well some of us happen to disagree with you. You said it yourself "ok but i gotta ask, what is your definition of pure?". Well to me a Lamproeltis getula californiae X Lampropeltis getula floridana is not pure. Especially if I paid for a true Dade Co. Lampropeltis getula floridana"Brooksi". Most of the Dade Co. so called "Brooksi" have everything from other local L. g. floridana to L. g. holbrooki in them and most of the greedy b$st$rds in this hobby don't seem to give a sh!t once the "getula"? leaves their hands. Have a nice evening!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

phill, whats your problem???
>In the past you have made the arguement that Getula are Getula and that there is nothing wrong with breeding a L. g. californiae with a L. g. getula or a L. g. floridana, for, in your opinion, they are all Lampropeltis getula. Well some of us happen to disagree with you.

>>> yes thats my opinion phill(im allowed an opinon.)
but being that you are bringing it up please put it in its proper context. i never said there is nothing wrong or promoted that or any cross. i said if its done its NOT a hybrid its an intergrade, which, through line breeding could be bred out. next i said imho what we(the hobby) call ssp. are merely pattern variants. all in all a bit differant discussion than the topic at hand but i stand by it and if you or anyone dissagrees then RITE-ON thats great. i dont hate on folks w/differing viewpoints.

>You said it yourself "ok but i gotta ask, what is your definition of pure?". Well to me a Lamproeltis getula californiae X Lampropeltis getula floridana is not pure. Especially if I paid for a true Dade Co. Lampropeltis getula floridana"Brooksi". Most of the Dade Co. so called "Brooksi" have everything from other local L. g. floridana to L. g. holbrooki in them and most of the greedy b$st$rds in this hobby don't seem to give a sh!t once the "getula"? leaves their hands. Have a nice evening!

>>>man why the hate?is it pj?do really condone that?... anyway i agree w/you and said so YOU SHOULD GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. i represent my snakes correctly. i have history on most, but i still sell most as generics, never have done the locality marketing that alot of follks do. i havnt done crosses then mispresented anything. i dont, never have and probably never will sell dade county locality brooksi.
i do care ALOT.
beleive me i love snakes ALOT more than i love money.
you have a nice evening in the circle
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,
First things first. I do not feel any hatred towards you. Heck, I've never even met you. For all I know you could be a blast to hang around. Second, please do not mistake my opinions with P.J.'s "Inner Circle's". Although P.J. and I do share some of the same philosophies about the hobby, there are things that we do disagree on. I have been working with reptiles for decades before I met P.J., and I not just a mindless tag along.

You are correct in that everyone is entitled to their opinion,
and by having one that contradicts yours does not mean that I hate you. This whole discussion started as a response to Viandy's post (see above). In my opinion Viandy has made
a good point, and all I did was make a statement in support of it. I do strongly disagree with your opinion about ssp., sp. crosses being intergrades versus hybrids. My initial point was that you should get what you pay for, and my frustration with a movement in the hobby to justify, the lack of, or disregard the correct history of an animal. I'm sorry if I seemed a little heated about it. It was not solely directed at you, but Brooksi are a perfect example of this. The Dade Co. Brooksi that existed in the field, in the 70's, before all of the development, are all but gone now. This is a huge reason to keep the locality's bloodlines true. Now, I know that this in itself doesn't help in preserving the true wild ssp., do to the human hand and selective breeding, but as a hobbyist, at least I would know that I'm getting a true Dade Co. Brooksi. Not as you put it, a Floridana X Californiae intergrade. In my opinion this applies to all ssp, and sp. and locales.
-Phil
P.s. Please start with capital letters when writing someone's name. It's proper grammar and is also a sign of respect. Thank you.
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

thanks for the post Phil. i also have been into herps for 25plus years, and im glad you disagree w/my opinion on sp.&ssp. it(the world) would be a pretty boring place if everyone agreed about everything all the time. but i feel i need to directly respond to this...

Now, I know that this in itself doesn't help in preserving the true wild ssp., do to the human hand and selective breeding, but as a hobbyist, at least I would know that I'm getting a true Dade Co. Brooksi. Not as you put it, a Floridana X Californiae intergrade. In my opinion this applies to all ssp, and sp. and locales.

>>> its not as I put it Phil, my theory is albino fla.kings were created by hobbiest maybe they weren't. irregardless noone will ever know for sure as there is no record of albinos being found and wouldnt ya know just a few years after albino calkings hit the market so did albino floridas, and easterns WOW figure them odds anyway i totally agree in that you should get what you pay for. i represent all my snakes truthfully always have always will. sadly when the morphs were established in fla.kings most of the brooksi were bred into them, but there are many who kept lines seperate best they could and hiyellow brooksi abound in the hobby to this day but i seriously doubt any are locale specific as from what i understand the %of wild pops in dade county are darker anyway also ad to the fact its the pet trade thats kept the name brooksi alive many many many that are sold are not brooksi some arent even fla.kings muchless from dade county and that sux! but i didnt cause or contribute to that sad fact. my advise for wanna be breeders is look at at least 100 before you invest in 1 and invest in who you trust after lots of questions. if a breeder wont talk about the history of his lines freely then id guess there something in the woodpile so to speak.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Your not the only one! Welcome to the new age of herpetoculture, where everything is left up to a persons word, and that can't even be trusted. Not to say that they aren't being honest, but they only know what the previous breeder told them, thus my disgust with hybrids. Someday you'll see Bat Eaters cruising the Everglades!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

most people can't understand this though, as I have tried many many many many many times.

Here is a female that is DEFINITELY from wild-caught parents that ARE from extreme southern Miami/Dade County.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

thats a nice king doug. care to talk about purity and honduran milks? because its the exact same thing that has happened w/kings.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

hly cow. Who is holding that monster honduran and how long is that?
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

thats me rainer and yes they are pretty big 6footers,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Nice group of snakes Thomas,.....milks are my forte, especially some of the Latin American ssp......but I don't think there are many people out there that can tell me much about them, that I am not already aware of.

I see questionable looking stuff ALL the time, which by the way only reinforces my point(s) even MORE.

just yesterday(prime example)....someone showing me a pic of what he bought as a Sinaloan,.....it had apricot yellow inner triad rings(please!). My point is Sinaloans DO NOT come in apricot yellow.
Many people's reaction would be...."Gee!, look at that cool lookin' Sinaloan with the gold rings!..LOL

I could keep going, but there's not much point.

take care!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I don't like hybrid crosses that look or resemble anything legit. The only ones i messed with are obvious hybrids. I don't see the fun in producing or promoting a hybrid that looks like a pure spp. That would not be fun and is plain dangerous for the hobby. This is why you need to educate newbies on hybrids and not against all hybrids. That kind of thinking is just like folks think all snakes are bad. They know some are venemous and some are non venemous but choose to label all bad. Someone taking a speckled king and breeding it to a calif king or Flaorida king or say a Nelson to honduran, rutheni ect ect is whats hurting the hobby....

..or is it?

There may be a day that is all we can own is hybrids and maybe have to lie and say that our snakes are hybrids just to get around legislation and new restrictive laws that are coming at us.

"no sir that is not a mountain king.." "It's a Florida x honduran x calif king and just looks like one"
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Rainer,......I couldn't agree more with ALOT of what you said!

some pose MUCH more of a "danger" to certain collections than others, which is something I wish more folks were aware of. And some "newbies" as you stated just don't have the years of experience to know any better. Much of what I have seen in the hobby tends to be sort of a "monkey see,..monkey do" mentality.

Some of these people might do just as well by literally blind-folding themselves, then reach into a huge bag of assorted snake species/ssp., then breed whatever two snakes they wind up pulling out!..LOL

Yes, borderline distinguishable animals always tend to do the most havoc in mainstream collections, and as you stated earlier, it would help immensely if more folks DID know what they were looking at, of course they would FIRST have to get familiar with good examples of "real" stuff FIRST, then go from there, but as we both know, many coudn't identify a Burmese python from a garter snake!..LOL

later dude!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

There have been many cases of newbees breeding corns to kings, or anyhting else that they have, just because they don't have the patience to acquire the opposite sex, or the funds to. They are in such a hurry to breed something, anything will do. In my opinion this Is going to really bite the hobby in the ass down the road. I've have seen several snakes in a local pet store that are marked as unknown colubrid, and people buy them. I'm sure they also use them to breed to other known and unknown colubrids as well, and then turn around and dump the babys off at the same store. What a joke!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

The BIG name breeders are producing crosses/hybrids and asking big $$$ for them. Of course newbies are going to follow suit.

BIG namer's have a heck of a sales pitch to sell they're mutants! They talk about purity but want high dollar for their experiments???

Bottom line... keep the prices of mutants down and newbies won't think they can make quick cash breeding crosses/hybrids. OR, keep the prices down on the mutants you produce and newbies won't be misled into breeding them.
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B

That is part of it, but I have personally seen the otherside as well. There is a lot more to this hybrid histeria then meets the eye.
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Dang, isn't there a hybrid forum?!!! Shouldn't this thread go there? All that was needed was cool lookin' snake! Agree or disagree about the snake, but it IS a kingsnake, lol! This is one of the longest running feuds on this forum. I am a locality guy that obviously owns a few crosses because I wasn't careful when I first started out, and heck, I liked the way the snake looked. Isn't that why we buy the snakes we do, because we like them? I own some God awful looking locality snakes that probably wouldn't appeal to people that want pretty snakes, but these are the real deal. And as such, they should be worth what someone is willing to pay, no more, no less. I do own some awesome locality snakes too, though, and paid what I paid because I wanted THOSE snakes, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Bottom line, this forum has been dead for a while. LOL!!!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Awesome head-shot.

Is that a Sinaloan?

John
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes

It's a Honduran Milksnake I produced in '04

I just posted it because it's one of my favorite shots.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I recall a post topic a couple months ago that got pretty heated but was deleted by the MODS.

But, someone in this thread stated once if a hybrid/cross was outbreed many times it becomes the species it was outbreed to be (not exact words, going on memory here). What I got out of that post was, EXAMPLE: if you bred a Cal King x FL King, kept breeding siblings to nothing but FL Kings or inbreeding siblings to each other or back to the parents by so many generations (?) it will eventually become a TRUE 100% FL. King and would test out as such.

I wish that Topic wasn't deleted so I could quote what was said and not go by memory!
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B

It's very similar to the arguement that if you have a swimming pool full of white paint and you drop a spoonful of black paint into it. Do you still have a pool of white paint?
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!