Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone

Just wanted to see what everyone thinks about the genetics of the extreme hypos. One of my projects for the 07 season was to breed my pinstriped hypo male and my extreme hypo female. She was a bit late ovulating and gave me late clutch late last year. To my surprise, half of the clutch was hypos and half was definite normal tangerines. Now I'm a bit confused since I expected the clutch to be at least all hypos (hypo x hypo right?) and I only bred that female to that particular male. One of the hypo offspring did have some vanishing patters though.

What do you guys think about my extreme hypo's genetics? Could she be a different gene of hypo and be het for the "normal" type of hypo? Just basing this theory from the result. She was from a breeding that produced her (extreme) and some "normal" type hypos.

Any opinions? Thanks.

Here are the pics of the parents.


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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Wow Jonel!,...that really IS a head scratcher!.....and I'm not real certain what to make of that strange scenario.

But surely SOMETHING funny is going on there!.....seems like the mutant(hypo) gene might not be in the standard paired order of both parents chromosomes for whatever reason, in short....incompatible as you also expected it might be.

What is the male pinstriped animal's background. It sure does look like a fine example of a hypo to me, I wonder if it could possibly be a VERY reduced/vanished patterned "Tangerine Dream" or something. That could, or could NOT be whats going on. All I can really say is hmmmmm!..LOL

In ANY case, those are two fantastic looking animals!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

That Steve Osborne first produced might not be compatible either, I'm not sure about that, but it might be another possibility. Some others will surely chime in on this.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hi Doug

From what I understand, the hypos were descended from Tangerine Dream animals so your not so far off. The male does pass on some unique genetics and even produced a pinstriped normal tangerine last year when it was bred back to an older sibling het hypo female last year. Now is this another quirk that we need to ponder? Hhhhmmmmm??????

Thanks for the input.

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Seems like you would either have to be right about it being a different hypo gene otherwise I would guess that maybe this could be one of the freak cases of sperm being held for over a year or since birth ... did you ever have a het hypo in contact with this snake or did it come from a het hypo parent?
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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

Hi Jon

Nope. No other contact with my other hondo males. I was actually trying to breed the two in 06 but the eggs went bad and only 1 survived (pictured below). So that theory is out the window. I was then able to produce this clutch in question in 07. The animal pictured looks similar to the hypos (except for 1 I mentioned) to this recent clutch.

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Wow, thats pretty weird.I have actually expected this to happen before this.
I think there is actually a couple strains of hypo in the hobby but one has always been trumphed by another so its always hidden.
Were did the extreme come from? I have never heard of the extreme's being anything but that.
I think its your male in question.I have a couple theory's on him.What is his story.

Shannon

Hi Shannon

The male is question was produced by Gary Gazianno who used to live Castro Valley, CA (now in FL) a couple of years back. He sold off his collection to Don Shores before moving to FL a few years ago which included the parents of the animals as well as the patternless hypo and vanishing patterned ghost that Gary produced. From what I remember the parents was from Len Krysko. As Far as the "extreme" female goes, I got him from Brian Gundy here in San Jose, CA but he initially purchased her animals from a guy named Martin Mainland (spelling???) from Gilroy, CA who produced her. Brian bought out his collection a couple of years ago when he was still into colubrids (now working with BPs). I'm trying to track down where and who his animals came from so I can determine if there's any relation to the other "extremes" out there. Hope this helps.

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Thats the Problem, the extreme you have is probably a different line from Falcon's and Terry's. See the only problem with calling them extreme's is its now become a "look" and not a blood line.
I was worried about this several years ago when we all decided to go with the name extreme instead of super hypo. I wish that Mike Falcon would have named them Falcon Hypos or Falcon Extreme's.

Oh well, whats done is done.

L8r

of these new neonate?

I'd love to see the one's you're calling "normals".

Thanks,
RG

Hi RG

I'll take pics of the animals soon. As far as the normal animals produced by this pair. They are just "run-of-the-mill" average looking hondurans. Nothing special about them except that they are "possibly" double het (which some of us are suspecting) for the 2 types of hypos genes that the parents represent individually. The hypos aren't really special looking except for one that I mentioned with the vanishing pattern. BTW, this was the same clutch that produced the twins I posted a while back.

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

OK, now several years ago I came on here and argued with Shannon and all about the EXTREME being the lavender albino morph. The fact that it first occured WITHIN the hypo line and the variability would make it difficult to discern. Now I really think what most are calling EXTREME are really lavender ghosts....and its only rarely that the lavender gene isnt passed on. With the immidiacy that people wanted to reproduce the EXTREME, the lavender would surely be disguised....Well, the het/het finally wore out and thats where you get what you hatched out. I suggest its not that there are incompatible HYPO lines, but that the lavender albino is finally revealed. That said, alot of people are going to have to go back and reprove the lav ghost. Its alot of work, but I still think its the simplest explanation to what you guys are seeing. I WAS RIGHT, ok, down off the soapbox,lol. Just my opinion,Jeff....sorry for the spelling,LOL

The EXTREME is a "low grade" extreme(lavender albino)het HYPO, bred to a HYPO you would get 50% hypo het lav ghost, 50% normal double hets? Does that fit??Jeff

when you breed an extreme to an extreme, not all the offspring are extremes? If it were a simple lav amel x lav amel, wouldn't that be the case?

I have a 1.2 trio (hypo het anery) produced by extremes that have bred that last few years. Every clutch has had an extreme but not an amel/albino. For it to convey albino, it would have no black at all (by definition). All babies were varying degrees of hypo or intermediate extremes (yes, there is such a thing). I just think it depends on where the expression falls on the chromosome....similar to aberrancies.

Another quick note about one other clutch. A few years back I produced an intermediate tricolor extreme from breeding a ghost het amel to a normal hypo (the older ones with more black tipping). This guy, to this day, has zero black tipping but the black has been replaced by the red. I guess my point being that the only gene remotely involved with that breeding via mom's side is the hypo gene (only male she's ever been with)

just my .02
excellent post/questions
mgl

I was talking to a good friend of mine who deals with pyros. The Sentz line (extreme version) hypo is not compatible with the BHB line hypo. These are 2 separate genes with varying degrees, but they both fit the definition

just more food for thought
mgl

Who's bread Extreme to Extreme and not gotten all Extremes?

Preferably from the same Extreme line...just because not all the Extreme genes I believe are the same (in my opinion).

I'd love to see the parents and pics and of the offspring from any Extreme to Extreme breeding.

-Rusty

Hey Rusty,
I believe it was a few years back. It was either Mike Alvarez or Mike Falcon. I can't remember. It was mentioned on the forums a few years back too. I'll try to track down that info.

mgl

I believe it was Alvarez and I have one of the males, now that I'm thinking about it. Here he is pictured and he is brighter than the other extremes.

np

I saw the whole clutch and I am sure that the whole clutch was extreme.There was one animal in question but in my mind it was just a low end extreme.Not every one is going to be a 10.It was way better than any other hypo I had seen (non extreme that is) but wasn't a killer extreme. I have produced many like that as well and so Has Dunham and we just chalk them up to med grade extreme's. I like to call them "ultra lights" cause you know that they are very light and bright but not a extreme. And usually one of the adults would be a extreme.

Shannon

p.s. here is a "ultra light" I produced.Even this one is a notch or two below what Alvaraz had produced.

NP

Figuring we wont be able to determine if it is a EXTREME HYPO(lav hybino),breeding hets will really start to get some varied results.See new post on my theory.

I think the hardest thing to do now is to determine an EXTREME from an EXTREME HYPO considering BOTH lines started at the exact same time. I think the variability you see in clutchs is when you actually have a EXTREME HYPO x EXTREME het hypo....or a HYPO het EXTREME. You will get HYPOS, EXTREMES AND EXTREME HYPOS within the same clutch .......all while just accounting it to variability. Now because each could be het for the other they will be VERY difficult to diverge, not really worth it anyways. Just going forward it would be nice to know exactly WHAT your breeders are capable of producing. As we get further generations away from the original breeding this will become more obvious. Just my opinion, but I like being right once in a while,lol.

What do you mean in your post..."EXTREME x EXTREME HYPO" I'm not trying to "knock" you, but are you "proof-reading" this stuff BEFORE you post?

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, it has been my contention that a "t "(lav)albino appeared within the HYPO line, and I concede the name--EXTREME. That said, I think there are 2 genes at work and therefore 3(!!)phenotypes. This is what I think people are looking at when they see alot of variation or get unpredictable results with their HYPO and EXTREME breeding trials. So the names EXTREME, HYPO and EXTREME HYPO(the lav hybino dual trait)exist....and this is why I argued against the name EXTREME because it is NOT describing variation but a completely seperate gene making further crosses going forward more difficult to name,etc..
That said, and will be argued for maybe another generation til so many "problems" surface my "dual-gene theory" they become unavoidable. See, when they are first produced most all will at least be het for the HYPO gene too, if not HOMO for it disguised. As more people outcross and breed het to het more and more unpredictable results will follow. It is my contention that one of his breeders was NOT in fact a EXTREME HYPO, but a EXTREME het HYPO,when bred to a HYPO predictable results....
Now I have been arguing this theory for 2-3 years(since the first EXTREMES were posted here)and I really dont see any reason to really "prove out" this theory on purpose because of the number of specimens($$)and time(1 generation minimum)it would take to do it.But for giggles lets theorize how to do it so if someone HAD the snakes they could do it themselves(and be the first to have "pure" EXTREMES without hypo influence.
Better to do this on a new thread...go to top of page

np

pipe down cause crack doesn't smoke itself.LOL.....
Lav ghosts? were is the anery gene coming from here? then you say lav amels or lavender hybinos? if they were amel of any kind then they would be amel and it would trump the hypo look ???/

my head hurts.........

anyway, yes Jeff you were right.Everybody out there with extremes actually have lavender hybinos (I am killing myself right now)oh wait I meant Lavender ghosts???/ROTFLMAO.....

Sorry Man, I will never agree that they are anything but nice hypos.

L8r Shannon

Like arguing to some about hybrids!......only with chromosomes instead!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Trials? Hey, I corrected the ghost thing before you got on me,lol. I will even call these EXTREME, but lets seperate them from HYPOS. My contention is that there are BOTH EXTREMES and EXTREME HYPOS(lav hybinos). Please post your "non-fitting" breeding trials to see if they "fit" my theory. Bottom line though...I dont think its worth the time and effort that it would take to truely seperate the gene....Sometimes we just like to be right, you can understand that cant you?? LOL!! LMAO too!

If they were extreme hybinos then when crossed with a amel to make dbl-het hybinos we would see some visual amels. This has never happened. There is no amel gene floating around in them (except maybe terry's cause a triple het was responsible for his line) and there is no anery. They are just hypo and maybe the Falcon line is a t albino but then why would there always be hypos produced when bred to hypos of any kind?
I know for a fact that a few people have bred a falcon extreme to a amel to create dbl-het extreme hybinos.I have a pair I am raising up. If they were hybinos the clutch would have hatched out all amels het hypo (extreme). Not the case.
I totally see your point but they are in no way hybinos (except a few Terry has but again its in the mix).

L8r

Shannon, forget amel. Lav=EXTREME. I suggest that the EXTREME gene came from the HYPO line and that there are EXTREMES, HYPOS and EXTREME HYPOS in many of your "variable" clutches. The further away you get(generations),the more hets are recrossed, the more this will become obvious. I suggest that the EXTREME line is in fact a DUAL GENE line, not a single, and that their similar appearance(see amel to hybino)is confusing breeders. As f3-4-5 generations are recrossed the hets will be lost and the "pure" EXTREME will be more easily noticed. But it will also cause more "unpredictable problems" every time this "gene(s)" is used to create something else.......Not on the pipe, a little wine never hurt nobody,lol.

Thats it, I am mixing a stiff one right now.My head really hurts now.LOL......

Now I know why backwards engineering is so difficult,lol. This is why we arent flying in saucers yet.....

Hi Jeff

I'm with Shannon on this one. I think we need a quick intervention, hehe jk. If it was a different gene I think "lavender albino" would be fairly close to describe my female or the extreme hypos for that matter. It was always in the back of my head that the extremes maybe were T-positive or "lavender albinos" that popped out in the hypo line but never really tried to prove it out (similar to what you TRIED to convey, hehe) or checked if anybody has. Not so sure that I would call them lavender ghost though since there's no anerythristic gene represented on this animal. Your numbers/percentages are fairly accurate but the terms that you used were a little confusing. Thanks for the input.
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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

In Jeff's defense, he corrected himself about the confusion in his first few posts...he didn't mean to type 'ghost', he meant to type 'hybino'.

I also believe that there is something going on with the Extreme morph. A few months ago there was another thread on this subject concerning Terry's Xtremes...and I think it may apply here as well.

Here's a quick summary of that previous thread:

Could some of these "extremes" really be better classified as T+ Amels, giving the snake that very light color?

In my opinion yes...

Let's assume that most/some/all “Extremes” are a T+ Amel, some are also Homo_Hypo and almost all are Het. Hypo because it first came out of the Hypo lineage.

The T+ Amels would look light in color and the T+ Hybino would be even lighter (maybe?).

I personally think many of the so called "extreme hypos" are really T+ Amels (prop. Het Hypo) and possibly T+ Hybinos.

Look at this website, and take a look at the “Caramel Albino”:

http://msnusers.com/BallPythons/abreifdiscriptionofsomemorphs.msnw

Another possible theory...after looking at the pictures of Jonel's animals...could the male just be a really nice Het Hypo with a vanishing pattern???

The reason I'm bring that up is that Randy W. produced some really nice vanishing Hets a couple of months ago and it's not out of the realm of possibilities that this is the case here.

Just my thoughts....

-Rusty

Rusty, the only thing I don't agree on in your post is that we still don't know if Terry's extremes are the same as Falcon's extremes? I will be breeding the two together this year and try to get some answers. Problem is I am about 99% sure I will get all hypos no matter what. Even if they are different strains they all have the generic line of hypo (love/miller)in them.

Look at some of Terry's extremes and they get allot of tipping even though its red.Now on the Falcon extreme's there is no tipping at all.

I am sure there is at least 4 lines of hypo in Hondurensis problem is they are all compatible and or dbl homo's etc....

L8r Shannon

Shannon, if these are the EXTREME HYPOS I propose, when bred to another line .....then the resulting offspring COULD be all hypo DBL HET for both EXREME lines,right?? Seperating these lines out would make for more uniform clutches.J

Hey Shannon,

I must have stated something incorrectly or not clearly...I do believe that Terry's "Xtremes" are different than the Falcon Extreme line (just a guess at this point)... and like you said you plan to test this next year.

I too think there are maybe a couple different hypo genes out there...and I'm pretty sure they are Co-Dominant traits.

I'm sure will know more about this great stuff in the next couple of years...that is after all, why Hondos have my attention right now!

-Rusty