Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, been taking a bunch of flak for a while now with no ill will and nothing gained. Time has passed and breeding trials with EXTREME lines are commencing so I will put forward a theory available for scutiny(NO CRACK JOKES,lol)and for those with such animals...Here goes nothin....
IF we can assume for a minute there are 3 phenotypes(EXTREME,HYPO,and EXTREME HYPO)and we know that the EXTREME line came from the HYPO line 66% of any EXTREMES will be het HYPO. Now how do we eliminate the HYPO gene from the EXTREME line? I would suggest test breeding to normal het hypos. If the EXTREME is het HYPO(66%)then 50% of the resulting offspring should be HYPO,50% normal het HYPO==all het EXTREME. IF the EXTREME is in fact a EXTREME HYPO then ALL of the offspring will be HYPO het EXTREME.
Now by another generation there will be some strange breeding trials like the one posted below. IF we assume his male is EXTREME het HYPO, and within a generation we find where a male EXTREME(poss het HYPO) was bred to "known" het EXTREME(poss het HYPO)and ALL morphs were EXTREME and none were HYPO then at least 1 of the parents was NOT het HYPO.Resulting offspring would still be 33% hets though.....
I dont have time to finish this here now, but could use the HELP if someone sees the finish line here. Bottom line, it will be MUCH harder to PROVE the "dual-gene theory" than it is to PROVE a HYBINO. It is much harder to remove a gene than it is to put one in,lol. Man I know I should have stuck with the science thing but sales just pays better, ouch my head.

With the prices dropping(snows) it might be most beneficial for someone to specialize even if its eliminating a gene not finding a new one...figuring that hondurans are the new corns.

Following up with other potential crosses...EXTREME het HYPO x EXTREME het HYPO-25% EXTREME HYPO and 75% EXTREME 66% het HYPO. EXTREME HYPO x EXTREME het HYPO=50% EXTREME HYPO and 50% EXTREME het hypo.EXTREME het HYPO X het EXTREME (50-66 %poss het HYPO)=12-17%EXTREME HYPO, 33-38%EXTREME (25-50% het HYPO),~30% HYPO (66%poss het EXTREME)and like 12% normal poss het/dbl het....

Where is this going? As the genetics are strung out thinner and thinner then recrossed it will be easier to SEE what is going on. YES,I might be dead balls on WRONG.Thats ok too isnt it? Jeff

If you bred the MOST EXTREME(figuring it to be a EXTREME HYPO) to a completely normal het for nothing you should have double hets. These bred back would then have a WIDE variety--25/25/25/25 in percentages. IF it were a single gene the single hets bred together would yield 50% morphs, and if it is a double gene then 75% should be morphs.....

het x het =25% morphs. dbl het x dbl het =75% morphs

if you breed an extreme x a normal and get hets or isolate the extreme gene, wouldn't there be some animals with tipping? This tipping would be influenced by the extreme gene and would be olive colored. I don't recall seeing a tipped extreme ever (please correct me if I'm wrong) but there has to be at least one out there without the hypo influence, right (assuming your theory is correct)? I guess what I'm getting at is that if it is a separate gene, then tipped animals would be evident but with the lack of tipped animals showing the extreme gene, by definition wouldn't they be hypo?

The same argument could be made for vanishing normals as they have reduced black

just food for thought on future breeding
mgl

I am real good at the math and the science but I dont have all the fun morphs to play with,lol. If my theory is correct about 1/3 of the "EXTREMES"(as defined prior to my theory)are actually EXTREMES as defined after my theory--with 2/3 of them being EXTREME HYPO. I have since refigured my theory a bit...
To prove it we can take the BEST,clearest, "MOST EXTREME" per say figuring that it would HAVE to be a EXTREME HYPO. Bred to a "normal" type (or for that matter an ANERY not het HYPO, The resulting offspring should be hets(1 gene),dbl hets(2 genes) or triple hets(3 genes--3rd being anery). These f2s when recrossed would produce EXPONENTIALLY more MORPHS than what would be expected....Instead of 25% with hets you would get 75% with double hets. and I think its 87.5% with triple hets. Problem is that is figuring f3....Wish I could go back now and erase some of these posts, feel pretty stupid to be the only one following,lol,thanks,Jeff

but I'm referring to the extreme 1/3 you are talking about. They wouldn't have any hypo influence, just the extreme gene. If you look at some amels, they get red/orange/yellow tipping inside and outside the triads. I would imagine that you would see tipping outside the triad in addition to inside. I took a peek at my extremes last night. The ones that I would say are lesser extremes (or just expressing the extreme gene w/o the hypo if your theory holds) still don't have tipping outside the triad. This may be chalked up to refinement over the years as the hypos now rarely have heavy tipping compared to the hypos from years past. But I'd like to see, and may do it, an lower end extreme bred to the most heavily tipped counterpart so the hets should essentially produced tipped extremes over the next generation (when bred back).

For Jeff's Theory only (not creating a new name):
hybino (convential albino and hypo)
extreme (lav albino)
extreme hypo (lab albino and conventional hypo)
exbino (lav albino and conventional albino)
hypo exbino (lav albino, conventional albino and hypo)

So I'm saying take an extreme and breed it with a "normal". Get "hets" and breed them back. 1/4 should be extremes and I would expect that there should be some tipping influence based on lineage....but I'm saying there wouldn't be...at least outside the triad---nobody knows yet, but why is that?????

I am planning on breeding my Alvarez male (extreme hypo) to heavily tipped female (from Alvarez) that is het extreme poss het amel (conventional). Now if your theory holds up, that female should be poss het hypo, poss het extreme, and poss het albino. I know the percentage of the babies and all that could be potentially produced....just makes for an interesting potential year

typing this pretty quickly because I have to go---

I guess that is why I got into herps in the first place, for the science, lol

mgl

so, the way I see it is like this.
you take a extreme hypo (as we know them) and breed it to a totally known normal. Take a couple of those offspring and breed them together (not back to dad) and you should see three types?correct?
wild type (possible dbl-hets) extreme's (non hypo or lav or whatever) and extreme hypo's?
we would have already seen this but I think if this holds true the problem is that were do you draw a line between a non hypo extreme vs. a hypo extreme? clearly they are both out there already if this theory holds water.

I really don't think you can go by tipping either. I have some with tipping (mostly the Terry's line)and I think its just part of life and chalk it up to variability.
But, I also believe that terry's line and falcon's lines are different.I really think that if there is a lavender gene it is in Terry's and not Mikes line.Lavender wouldn't reduce tipping and Terry's line still has allot of tipping (although atractive).

L8r Shannon

Now if my theory holds true you should get 25% dbl hets(look normal, 25% hypo(66%poss het extreme), 25% extreme(66%poss het hypo),and 25% EXTREME HYPOS. So there should be 3 morphs/normal, but I STILL wont know exactly what is what....But extremes(as I have newly defined them)should still be able to be found in the unexpected results in breeding trials(like above). The problem there is they will more likely be het for hypo.

I know Shannon saw the clutch (as well as Terry D--although if I recall correctly I thought Terry the one who told me it wasn't an extreme). Regardless, if both of Alvarez's breeders were extreme hypo (the best of the best), then all the offspring should be extreme hypo and best of the best. There really should have been a question if the hypo gene was involved. Now I know this is all speculative and that animals will not always be sharp even while displaying the same trait, but according to Jeff's theory, that entire clutch should be a knockout.

I'm agreeing with Shannon but I entertain all theories, especially if proof can accompany. It makes for good cooler talk with other science fools.

The tipping was more of a curiosity question since usually you see the opposite (vanishing). I would venture to say that if tipped ones are present (thanks Paul and Shannon) then that is more support to the extreme hypo (as we know it) theory. I bet the extreme hypo expression activates a stronger genetic signal for upregulation/downregulation of a pattern, which is why you get aberrant, vanishing or very clean hypos associated with extremes. The extreme ghost that Exposito and Falcon produced should be more aberrant and have little to zero tipping. If there is tipping, it should be olive like the triad olive.

Let the testing continue....
good discussions
mgl

This is MUCH more obvious in person but on this pair you can see tipped grey scales but it is basically equal to the tipping on a clean ghost or a tricolor hypo = no tipping outside of the triads. I am quite positive that these are homozygous hypos coming from Mike Falcon so this doesn't back up any of the extreme/hypo theorys or anything. Just thought I would share.

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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

Jon, what I am saying is that MOST every animal with the EXTREME gene(showing)is going to be a double HOMO. I suggest that there are some HOMO/het hypo out there and because they came out at the same time and the same place we cant tell the difference yet. Certainly by f3 we will know, but I am planting this seed with everyone breeding them this coming season to be on the lookout for strange ratios and percentages. For those of you lucky enough to have LOTS of em, you can even test breed the theory yourself. Thats all,thanks,Jeff

I was just wondering if people have this type of tipping on their extremes ... I wasn't trying to go against the grain. I mentioned that I am pretty sure that its hypo to not confuse things further and have people suggest maybe this is one of those extreme-het-hypos .. not the case. (Pretty sure - hope to find out in the spring)

Everyone says their extremes have "no" tipping but do they mean it literally? Thats all I was getting at ... This extreme has definite tipping and it is so grey that it looks orange from far back. Also if I photograph with a flash it actually blends in with the orange.

I know this tipping isn't everywhere but does anybody else have it in the middle band like this?

Extreme (no flash) Tipping is visible

Extreme (with flash) Tipping is hardly visible

Closeup of some serious tipping

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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

My lesser vibrant extremes have slight tipping, nothing outside the triad and some of the others don't have it at all. Just like what you'd see in an extreme hypo...just varying degrees

great pic
mgl

Hi

If you look closely (or if I take a better pic, hehe), my "extreme" female that I posted below does have some tipping and is the same color as the bands. The tipping occurs in the inner tangerine bands as well as on the wider tangerine bands. Would she qualify???
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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Sorry but I am not an expert in hondurans. I have been a scientist so genetics and the math behind them come pretty easy. I think Shannon and some of the breeders could more easily tell you what you have there. I think because we are only on the f2 generation that my theory cant be proved yet. Thanks for listening,lol.J

I've had similar thoughts...and that's why both Tri-Color "Xtremes" mine and Shannon's both have small amounts of grey tipping...maybe.

It could also be that the tri-color gene just has some tipping associated with it...another theory of mine.

But if you look at my tri-color "Xtreme" and compare it to most of the other Falcon extremes...I think you'd agree it's a shade or two darker.

-Rusty

Just wanted to add that I have an extreme that has tipping...

I bred the progenitor of my extreme line to a Falcon DH Ghost that is from his extreme line. The DH Ghost female is a heavily tipped tangerine. I produced Extremes from this pairing in 2006 and 2007 that are also possible het-anery. The extremes from 2006 have begun to tip, most likely due to their heavily tipped mother. The tipping is gray.

Anyhow, just wanted to point out that there are extremes with tipping.
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

above then? Glad to hear Paul, I was just curious

thanks
mgl

lol...sorry about that matt

I'll try to get a picture of the one with tipping. It's an interesting looking female.
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps